Starboy

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Starboy

Ether

Sure man did evolved but...why? What made man evolve? Do you think that because Darwin saw some changes in a couple of animals here and there the same could be applied in greater amount to man in a much longer period?

Man doesn't creates anything he only transforms the materials, ideas, morals that already exist. But man sure can destroy things very well.

And who said that this Gods had to be supernatural, omnipotent, omnicient, omnipresent, etc?? Those are just confused, transformed and misunderstod xtian thoughs.

Now you start taking it to a personal level. Very much like xtians I have to say, I find it as confortable as I need it to be.

As stated above I am not a christian and the agument was just a simple statement, I am sorry it got so hard on your head.

Again taking it to the personal level.

Oh and yeah Good Day
Ether

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ether ]

[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Ether ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

That was not the only argument I made, just one of them and yes, it was on a personal level.

And...?

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Koyaanisqatsi ]</p>

Eudaimonist

I couldn't disagree more.

1) You are right that men can only transform materials, not create them out of thin air, but if so it is also true that men cannot destroy those materials into thin air! All men can do is transform them into something worthless.

2) The history of philosophy and science is filled with novel, pathbreaking ideas, and using ideas to transform materials is a creative (though non-magical) process!

3) What a sad view of humanity you must have if you deny human beings creativity, but note destruction.

Ether

1-Agree with you on that one.

2-It is a creative process but what I was refering to is that man can't create anything he only transforms things that already exists. This was something I told to Koyaanisqatsi when he said that man created morals and lenguages.

As I am very sure you have noticed there are many different sub divisions of the same lenguage in a country. For example people north of here have a very different style to pronounce words than here in the south. It is the same lenguage but with some cultural effecct added to it.

3- You know what? I do have a sad view of humanity, It bores me to no end. We all keep fighting over reasons we don't even understand, we have given oil and military weaponns more value than humans and nature.

We keep overpopulating the planet without taking any kind of control towards that, we keep making big holes to put really tall buildings in them again without taking any kind of consideration, we drive cars that don't help either, we cut trees and don't help on reforestation, we eat food with a lot of chemicals (included by us) that are the reason why women keep given birth to mutants, etc.

In the end we are just going all the way down the road and we don't even know where it leads. It of course leads to mass destruction.

Good Day
Ether

[ August 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ether ]</p>

Koyaanisqatsi

Did I miss something?

Ether

Is up to you to find out...or not to.

Denshuu

Ether- You've used 'create' and 'destroy' in two different ways. This could cause some problems later on, so I'll just point them out and continue my lurking...

When it is said that man cannot create and destroy, physical objects come to mind. Weapons, clothing, houses, and other pieces of construction can not be spontaniously created by man, they can only be assembled with pre-existing parts. Likewise, they cannot be destroyed either - Only disassembled.

Another way 'create' and 'destroy' are used is opposite of the former. Man can create and destroy abstract ideas or memes - Like language and morals. Man is able to create morality and language because they are both abstract ideas existing in the minds of humans, not made up of atoms like houses and weapons are.

You seemed to be jumping back and forth between definitions - Hope that helps.

Koyaanisqatsi

I know what I've said in this post and at no point did I say that man created morals and languages, nor can I find any comments from you direct to me regarding this bizzare, unnecessarily cryptic declaration you made.

I may have said something like this in another thread. Is that what you were refering to?

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

NOGO2

Agreed.
Just a bad choice of words. What I meant to say is that by using the word atheist one is defining oneself with respect to the belief in God. We can state it otherwise.