Freethought & Rationalism Archive

River · 06-19-2003, 06:29 PM

[ Noble Quran 25:4] Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood.

[Noble Quran 25:5] They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night."

As if your arguments have any weight? The Quran is without a Doubt the Uncreated Word of G-d -River

06-20-2003, 12:35 PM

I don't think the koran teachs a flat earth.There is absolutely no mention of the earth having corners,but there is a verse that says the earth > 084.003

YUSUFALI: And when the earth is flattened out,

SHAKIR: And when the earth is stretched,

06-20-2003, 12:39 PM

Ephrem the Syrian's white raisins became houris, those lovely ladies each good Muslim man gets a harem of in the next world.

What do you think about this response about hoorieen ?

TRANSCRIPT OF DEBATE

Now we address the issue of the supposed Syro-Aramaic "reinterpretation" of the Qur'�n..

DR. HEGER: Shibli said: �Could you please provide some reference to that Hymn from Efraim as-Sury�n�?� Look for the Hymn "About the Paradise" or as it is often quoted �De Paradiso�!�

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Perhaps Dr. Heger did not quite understand what I asked. I didn't ask him to reiterate the same source over again like some sort of mantra. I asked him to reference where Efraim the Assyrian uses the term "H�r" or "`Een" in reference to raisins or grapes. AN EXAMPLE. We all know why Heger didn't answer the question..

DR. HEGER: Shibli said: �Also, could you please tell me how you get �white raisin� from �H�r al-`Een�?.. I wonder why he makes this striking mistake. The usual Koran has no �H�r al-`Een�, only a "H�r `�n" or with another manner of transliteration "Huwr `iyn".

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Again, Dr. Heger does not answer the question. He only presents another one. To answer his question, H�r al-`Een is a reference to the H�r(un) `Een of the Qur'�n in the Arabic language since time in memorium.

Perhaps he can look in Lis�n al-`Arab of Ibn al-Manthoor, volume 4, and read the cited stanza:
"H�r al-`Een li-annahunna bi-thab�' wa-l baqar"

It is �H�r al-`Een� (as found extra-Qur��nically) or �H�r(un) `Een� (as found in the Qur��n), but it is not �H�r `iyn� as Dr. Heger writes erroneously without the necessary nunation. So much time is wasted on this man's straw man diversions from his horrible inability to address the arguments.

DR. HEGER: Actually, as Christoph Luxenburg in his "Die syrisch-aramaeische Lesart des Koran. Ein Beitrag zur Entschluesselung der Koransprache" ("The Syriac-Aramaic Reading of the Koran. A Contribution to Decyphering the Koranic Language"), Berlin 2000, has made it plain..

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Komisar Luxenburg should learn Aramaic before writing about it. His theories range from ludicrous to hilarious. Or does he really know Aramaic and is simply LYING? It seems to be a trend amongst German missionaries.

DR. HEGER: The "Huwr `iyn" have nothing to do with girls, but are "white, crystal clear (grapes) - an aramaism, which in the case of "Huwr" (white) was understood correctly by the Arabic commentators, but in the case of "`iyn" totally misunderstood (as they misread the preceding word "zawwajnaahum", "we join them" instead of �rawwaHnaahum", "we let them rest".

SHIBLI ZAMAN: Now let us look at the words "H�r" and "`Een" in Syro-Aramaic. Please refer to my numerous debates with Dr. Heger regarding these languages and watch how he constantly falls on his face yet gets up and begs for more each time.

H�r

ARABIC: H�r - "...And �Hawar� is also the stark whiteness of the eye in contrast to the stark blackness (of the iris)" [Mukht�r as-Sih�h, Abu Bakr ar-R�z�, Letter "H�'"]

Example of Qur'�nic Usage:

"wa-H�r(un) `Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-W�qi`ah 22].

HEBREW: Chavar - "Be or grow white, pale (Arabic 'Hawir� be white, 'Hawar' whitness, Aramaic 'Ch�ar�...Isaiah 29:22 '...va-lo `att�h p�n�yv yeCHEVARU'..." [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong's # 2357, p. 301]

Example of Old Testament Usage:

"l�kh�nkoh �mar Yahweh el-b�yt ya`aqob asher p�d�h eth-abr�h�m lo `att�h y�bosh ya`aqob va-lo `att�h p�n�yv yechev�ru"

"Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax PALE." [Isaiah 29:22]

SYRO-ARAMAIC: Ch�ar - "..TO BECOME WHITE, to assume white, i.e. white clothing as a party badge; 'yacht�m� ch�ar�..' his garments became white..to make white or clear from the stains of sin.." [A Compendious Syriac Dictionary Founded Upon the Thesaurus Syriacus of R. Payne Smith, Edited J. Payne Smith, page. 133]

Example of New Testament Usage:

"Ayta�h� h�we� dayn chez�eh �yk barq� walb�sheh CHUWOR h�we� �yk talg�"

"His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment WHITE AS SNOW" [Matthew 28:3]

Conclusion: "H�r" means "white" in Arabic, "white" in Hebrew, and "white" in Syro-Aramaic.

`Een

ARABIC: `Een - "The sensor of sight (feminine). Plural 'A`yun(un)', 'Uy�n(un)', and 'A`y�n(un)'. Diminutive '`Uyaynah', and '`Ayn' also refers to a spring of water.." [Mukht�r as-Sih�h, Ab� Bakr ar-R�z�, Entry "`Ayn"]

Example of Qur'�nic Usage:

"wa-H�r(un) `Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-W�qi`ah 22].

HEBREW: `Ayin - "Noun Feminine. Eye. 1. Literally as a physical organ...2. a. eyes as shewing mental qualities...3. Fig. of mental and spiritual faculties...4. Transferred meanings: a. visible surface of the earth...b. appearance...c. gleam, sparkle (of metal, jewels, etc)...Noun Feminine. Spring (of water)..." [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong's # 5869, p. 744-745]

Example of Old Testament Usage:

"`Ayin tachat`ayin..."

"Eye for eye, tooth for tooth..." [Exodus 21:24]

SYRO-ARAMAIC: `Een - "...feminine, the eye...a) of men...b) intelligence, the mental eye...c) a view, opinion...d) the surface of the earth...e) the socket of the knee...f) the opening or span of a bridge...g) the buds of a vine...h) the color, sparkle of wine, of precious stones i)...a spring, fount, fountain, source.."

Example of New Testament Usage:

"...D'`een� chalaf `een�"

"...And eye for an eye" [Matthew 5:38]

Conclusion: "`Een/`Ayn" means "eyes, physical sight, insight, luster" or "spring" in Arabic, Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic. "Grape" or "raisin" is not found in ANY Lexicon or even a single verse of the Bible. It is the invention of Luxenberg parroted all over the internet by his pathetic fan Dr. Heger who in turn taught it to a cowardly Iranian by the pen-name "Ibn Warraq".

Over all conclusion: The evidence has been presented clearly and the lies refuted. Now the onus of proof remains on the shoulders of the aforementioned 3 Stooges.

River · 06-20-2003, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by net2002
I don't think the koran teachs a flat earth.There is absolutely no mention of the earth having corners,but there is a verse that says the earth > 084.003

YUSUFALI: And when the earth is flattened out,

SHAKIR: And when the earth is stretched,

This verse is talking about the Physics of the Earth and Universe immediately before Judgement Day. Some Theories suggest that the Universe is Contracting and the Earth is imploding.....

Normal · 06-24-2003, 11:33 AM

I'm curious as to what Muslims think of the "Mohammad - Illiterate" debate.

Was Mohammad illiterate and did he dictate the passages that were revealed to him? If so, who compiled the final book?

Jeremy Pallant · 06-24-2003, 09:26 PM

Just out of curiosity, are there any contemporary accounts that mention Mohammad?

06-19-2003, 06:29 PM	#21
River Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: NY Posts: 3,680	G-d Anticipated your Weak Arguments : Proof [ Noble Quran 25:4] Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood. [Noble Quran 25:5] They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night." As if your arguments have any weight? The Quran is without a Doubt the Uncreated Word of G-d -River

06-20-2003, 12:39 PM	#23
net2002 Guest Posts: n/a	b12 Ephrem the Syrian's white raisins became houris, those lovely ladies each good Muslim man gets a harem of in the next world. What do you think about this response about hoorieen ? TRANSCRIPT OF DEBATE Now we address the issue of the supposed Syro-Aramaic "reinterpretation" of the Qur'�n.. DR. HEGER: Shibli said: �Could you please provide some reference to that Hymn from Efraim as-Sury�n�?� Look for the Hymn "About the Paradise" or as it is often quoted �De Paradiso�!� SHIBLI ZAMAN: Perhaps Dr. Heger did not quite understand what I asked. I didn't ask him to reiterate the same source over again like some sort of mantra. I asked him to reference where Efraim the Assyrian uses the term "H�r" or "`Een" in reference to raisins or grapes. AN EXAMPLE. We all know why Heger didn't answer the question.. DR. HEGER: Shibli said: �Also, could you please tell me how you get �white raisin� from �H�r al-`Een�?.. I wonder why he makes this striking mistake. The usual Koran has no �H�r al-`Een�, only a "H�r `�n" or with another manner of transliteration "Huwr `iyn". SHIBLI ZAMAN: Again, Dr. Heger does not answer the question. He only presents another one. To answer his question, H�r al-`Een is a reference to the H�r(un) `Een of the Qur'�n in the Arabic language since time in memorium. Perhaps he can look in Lis�n al-`Arab of Ibn al-Manthoor, volume 4, and read the cited stanza: "H�r al-`Een li-annahunna bi-thab�' wa-l baqar" It is �H�r al-`Een� (as found extra-Qur��nically) or �H�r(un) `Een� (as found in the Qur��n), but it is not �H�r `iyn� as Dr. Heger writes erroneously without the necessary nunation. So much time is wasted on this man's straw man diversions from his horrible inability to address the arguments. DR. HEGER: Actually, as Christoph Luxenburg in his "Die syrisch-aramaeische Lesart des Koran. Ein Beitrag zur Entschluesselung der Koransprache" ("The Syriac-Aramaic Reading of the Koran. A Contribution to Decyphering the Koranic Language"), Berlin 2000, has made it plain.. SHIBLI ZAMAN: Komisar Luxenburg should learn Aramaic before writing about it. His theories range from ludicrous to hilarious. Or does he really know Aramaic and is simply LYING? It seems to be a trend amongst German missionaries. DR. HEGER: The "Huwr `iyn" have nothing to do with girls, but are "white, crystal clear (grapes) - an aramaism, which in the case of "Huwr" (white) was understood correctly by the Arabic commentators, but in the case of "`iyn" totally misunderstood (as they misread the preceding word "zawwajnaahum", "we join them" instead of �rawwaHnaahum", "we let them rest". SHIBLI ZAMAN: Now let us look at the words "H�r" and "`Een" in Syro-Aramaic. Please refer to my numerous debates with Dr. Heger regarding these languages and watch how he constantly falls on his face yet gets up and begs for more each time. H�r ARABIC: H�r - "...And �Hawar� is also the stark whiteness of the eye in contrast to the stark blackness (of the iris)" [Mukht�r as-Sih�h, Abu Bakr ar-R�z�, Letter "H�'"] Example of Qur'�nic Usage: "wa-H�r(un) `Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-W�qi`ah 22]. HEBREW: Chavar - "Be or grow white, pale (Arabic 'Hawir� be white, 'Hawar' whitness, Aramaic 'Ch�ar�...Isaiah 29:22 '...va-lo `att�h p�n�yv yeCHEVARU'..." [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong's # 2357, p. 301] Example of Old Testament Usage: "l�kh�nkoh �mar Yahweh el-b�yt ya`aqob asher p�d�h eth-abr�h�m lo `att�h y�bosh ya`aqob va-lo `att�h p�n�yv yechev�ru" "Therefore thus saith the LORD, who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax PALE." [Isaiah 29:22] SYRO-ARAMAIC: Ch�ar - "..TO BECOME WHITE, to assume white, i.e. white clothing as a party badge; 'yacht�m� ch�ar�..' his garments became white..to make white or clear from the stains of sin.." [A Compendious Syriac Dictionary Founded Upon the Thesaurus Syriacus of R. Payne Smith, Edited J. Payne Smith, page. 133] Example of New Testament Usage: "Ayta�h� h�we� dayn chez�eh �yk barq� walb�sheh CHUWOR h�we� �yk talg�" "His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment WHITE AS SNOW" [Matthew 28:3] Conclusion: "H�r" means "white" in Arabic, "white" in Hebrew, and "white" in Syro-Aramaic. `Een ARABIC: `Een - "The sensor of sight (feminine). Plural 'A`yun(un)', 'Uy�n(un)', and 'A`y�n(un)'. Diminutive '`Uyaynah', and '`Ayn' also refers to a spring of water.." [Mukht�r as-Sih�h, Ab� Bakr ar-R�z�, Entry "`Ayn"] Example of Qur'�nic Usage: "wa-H�r(un) `Een", meaning, "And the extreme whitness of the eye" [al-W�qi`ah 22]. HEBREW: `Ayin - "Noun Feminine. Eye. 1. Literally as a physical organ...2. a. eyes as shewing mental qualities...3. Fig. of mental and spiritual faculties...4. Transferred meanings: a. visible surface of the earth...b. appearance...c. gleam, sparkle (of metal, jewels, etc)...Noun Feminine. Spring (of water)..." [Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon, Strong's # 5869, p. 744-745] Example of Old Testament Usage: "`Ayin tachat`ayin..." "Eye for eye, tooth for tooth..." [Exodus 21:24] SYRO-ARAMAIC: `Een - "...feminine, the eye...a) of men...b) intelligence, the mental eye...c) a view, opinion...d) the surface of the earth...e) the socket of the knee...f) the opening or span of a bridge...g) the buds of a vine...h) the color, sparkle of wine, of precious stones i)...a spring, fount, fountain, source.." Example of New Testament Usage: "...D'`een� chalaf `een�" "...And eye for an eye" [Matthew 5:38] Conclusion: "`Een/`Ayn" means "eyes, physical sight, insight, luster" or "spring" in Arabic, Hebrew and Syro-Aramaic. "Grape" or "raisin" is not found in ANY Lexicon or even a single verse of the Bible. It is the invention of Luxenberg parroted all over the internet by his pathetic fan Dr. Heger who in turn taught it to a cowardly Iranian by the pen-name "Ibn Warraq". Over all conclusion: The evidence has been presented clearly and the lies refuted. Now the onus of proof remains on the shoulders of the aforementioned 3 Stooges.

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06-20-2003, 12:35 PM	#22
net2002 Guest Posts: n/a	I don't think the koran teachs a flat earth.There is absolutely no mention of the earth having corners,but there is a verse that says the earth > 084.003 YUSUFALI: And when the earth is flattened out, SHAKIR: And when the earth is stretched,

06-24-2003, 11:33 AM	#25
Normal Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Canada Posts: 639	I'm curious as to what Muslims think of the "Mohammad - Illiterate" debate. Was Mohammad illiterate and did he dictate the passages that were revealed to him? If so, who compiled the final book?

06-24-2003, 09:26 PM	#26
Jeremy Pallant Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Tucson, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,242	Just out of curiosity, are there any contemporary accounts that mention Mohammad?

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