Grad Student Humanist

Well it's always difficult to speak for someone, but I could never imagine my mother disowning me in favor of religion. Even if I were to tell her I was gay, something which both the church and the Bible condemn, I know she wouldn't disown me and would stand by me in defiance of the church if need be.

openeyes

I think everyone is making good points.

When you think of the constant conditioning to the thought that "belief in god, follow his way = morality" which most religions preach, it's just not logical for people who have bought into the "program" to conclude that "no belief can = morality."

It's especially confounding when someone professes no belief and that person seems to be leading a decent life. Too much thought about it causes too much cognitive dissonance, so I think many people just think we really believe but just don't know it. Or they blame any usual human failings to our non-belief.

My family learned of my atheism last summer in a letter I wrote to all of them. (It was about time as I starting questioning over 25 years ago!) It's been pretty much ignored except for a response from my mom (also a letter). Everyone treats me and my kids pretty much the same. Was interesting though in an email from my mom regarding an upcoming family event that she said "we love you all " Did wonder a little bit who the underline was directed at.

I'm letting others know on a "need to know" basis. Really wish I was brave enough to place the "Imagine No Religion" bumper sticker on my car that I got from the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Unfortunately, too many retired ministers in my townhouse complex. (Incidently, one of them is the most unfriendly to our non-townhouse neighbors of anyone!)

Shake

Well Luiseach, I see you're in the UK. It must be nice to be somewhere that you can take godlessness for granted and not have to fear persecution for it. The attitude here in The States has gone downhill, what with 9/11, and W at the helm. He's only got 2 more years left. As an aside, I hope he's not thinking that war will keep his approval rating up enough to get reelected. His father went to war (with greater support) closer to the end of his term and still couldn't win a second term!

Again, here in the US, although I suspect there might be hints of it elsewhere in the West, there's still strong memory of the "godless communists" who were our enemies for so long. So, here to be godless is considered un-American by many, as articles such as this will point out.

We are feared. People fear what they do not know about. Feared due to ignorance about who we are and what we do believe in. They see the world in black and white: we don't have god in our lives, so we must be evil and immoral. In another thread someone mentioned that we need to show theists that not having god in our lives doesn't mean there is a void. Atheism is not the opposite of morality ... in fact, the two are quite compatible. I consider myself also a humanist, and I draw from the desire to benefit mankind and ease suffering in the world from that perspective! The thread I mentioned said that we have to show theists that there IS something to replace their beliefs with ... we're not offering them nothing! Humanist principles offer a lot and can fill the "void" when Faith is lost.

Just my 2�.

Luiseach

I've been thinking about this seeming difference between the UK and North America (esp. the USA) in how the different nations handle belief and disbelief. Now, I'm not saying that we don't have deeply religious people here (because we certainly do), but at the same time there does seem to be a higher tolerance of agnosticism and atheism, in most sectors of society. An advert was on the TV that said something which I think is rather significant for understanding tolerance (I can't remember the exact quotation) 'Our national pasttime is ridicule'. I'm wondering now if there is a difference in perspective between the UK and North America - does an irreverent sense of humour help to improve tolerance (or even acceptance)? Is the UK more tolerant of irreverence than North America is? Surely, regardless of culture, we share similar senses of humour, but perhaps it is encouraged here more? I'm not sure, but I find that the more deeply fundamentally religious some people are, the less they seem to be willing to have a good laugh. Take the Simpsons, that wonderful American creation...the character of Ned Flanders, the shiny-faced fundy Christian stereotype admittedly, but wildly hilarious nonetheless, a lampoon....and there are some Christians who don't actually see the fact that Flanders is meant to be a parody!

I'm beginning to understand this 'fear' factor...it smacks of paranoia, and paranoia is a weakness, don't you think? I think some of the contributors here have said a true thing though, by pointing out that in-groups tend to perpetuate themselves by scapegoating, excluding variables (ie human beings) who don't mesh gears with the majority within the group.

Have you heard of Billy Connolly, the Glaswegian comedian? He has always been fond of making irreverent jokes about issues relating to Catholicism, despite (or perhaps because of) him being a Catholic. The Roman Catholic Church criticised Connolly for this, to which he replied in a television interview that if the Catholic Church can be jeopardised in some way by a few jokes made by one wee Glaswegian comedian, then it musn't have very strong foundations. He's right, I think.

I think you're right about some believers seeing reality in terms of 'right' and 'wrong,' 'good' and 'evil,' 'man' and 'woman,' 'Heaven' and 'Hell,' 'Fall' and 'Grace' (ad nauseum). This way of thinking is not only logocentric, but falsely simplifying...what I tend to call 'shorthand thinking' for people disturbed by the grey and in-between areas of life, thought, morality, what have you. Again, I think humour is a key ingredient in driving a wedge between the 'either/or' polarised ways of thinking that have caused so much misery in the past (and still is).

Thanks for your 2 cents... :-) That's my tuppence added to the conversational kitty. ;-)

Aerion

BBT is basically correct. Atheism is a threat to christianity in that its existance forces christians to confront the lack of proof of their faith. Most christians on finding out that I'm an atheist are usually confounded by it. They cannot fathom a human being who does not believe in God.

Luiseach

Now if I had a car, I would definitely want a bumper sticker like that.

Why would the proximity of retired ministers (or any religious folk) prevent you from expressing your disbelief in any way, with bumper stickers or whatever? (another naive, but sincere question) :-D

Asha'man

Vandalism to the car.

Yep, Christians will actually resort to such things as petty vandalism over a bumper sticker. I'm actually quite amazed at the slack in their "superior" morality.

MollyMac

This is exactly how I see it. I tend to assume everyone I meet is an atheist and if they turn out to be religious (and I don't usually find out because the subject just doesn't come up that often), I assume they are at the very liberal end of the spectrum.

I was really shocked when I first came to this board last summer. I had no clue what things were like in the US although I'd been there a couple of times. I think we tend to base our mental image of American life and culture on American films and TV programmes. When does religion ever come up in Friends or Frasier ?

But the picture of American culture painted by many of the posters here reminds me of teenage gangs of yobbos. You know how gangs have their own culture, their own rules and norms of behaviour and anyone who deviates is given a rough time or excluded altogether. Take any individual out of a gang and expose them to a few different ideas and ask them to really think about things, then just maybe they will reject the gang culture. But it's much easier to stay where they feel safe. If they ever hear a different point of view, their responses are conditioned by their peer group - a group which gives them a sense of belonging and support.

Sometimes, after reading posts on this board, I feel that US society must be just one big gang of teenage thugs.

Godless Dave

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:notworthy

That's exactly it. I tried to articulate that in an essay in college and couldn't get my point across.

DMB

Don't forget: it's not just xian fundies who hate atheists. Islam is very strong against them and some muslims hold that they should be put to death.