Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arken · 07-28-2003, 03:26 PM

Okay, since Volker seems to refuse to submit to the experiment, I did as he said and got my 'personal portrait' done at Astro.com. Here are the results along with my comments:

Quote:

Sun in Cancer, Moon in Scorpio

You were born with the Sun in Cancer and the Moon in Scorpio. Your inner nature is more natural, sensitive, easy-going, and frank than your personality would indicate.

Bullshit. If anything, I'm far more easy-going on the outside and far more inwardly neurotic although admittedly the neurosis often comes to the surface.

Quote:

You were born with the potential to live life simply, solely concerned with satisfying your pleasure-seeking impulses.

Again wrong. I don't live life simply at all and I am far from solely concerned with satisfying my pleasure-seeking impulses. In fact, I spend a lot of time trying to help others in all sorts of ways which I don't find pleasurable but necessary.

Quote:

Others may view you as a very firm, self-reliant, determined, and strong personality.

That may be, but that doesn't say what I am and others may also view me as very weak, codependent, indecisive and shallow.

Quote:

You are clear and abrupt, energetic, positive, and capable of carrying out projects that involve hard work and dedication.

I'm actually sometimes quite obfuscating and long-winded. I usually lack energy and I tend to be a realist. Sure I'm capable of carrying out such projects, but then who isn't? Capable doesn't mean anything.

Quote:

On the same level, you are also fond of the good things of the world.

As opposed to all of those billions of people who hate good things I suppose?

Quote:

Your personality is irritable and you may be subject to fits of anger.

Wait a minute... at the top of this paragraph it said I was easy-going and later it said I was viewed as strong. That doesn't sound either easy-going or strong to me. What gives here?

Quote:

Internally you are a very cautious person;

Yeah, I don't go jumping head-first into pools of bubbling lava so I guess that's true...

Quote:

but externally the position of the Moon in Scorpio indicates sensuality. You are inclined to strong pleasures and sexual adventures.

I guess my life has sucked up to now then.

Quote:

You have a way of saying things that makes you appear skeptical and cynical.

Me? NEVER! (Okay, we'll call this one a hit.)

After this was an advice part which I'm skipping since it has nothing to do with predictions but on the other hand it was totally nonsensical and stupid.

Quote:

You appear as a solid, secure, even slow person, fond of moving along tangible lines, disliking abstract speculation.

So I'm stupid? Fuck you, horoscope.

Quote:

You are loyal and steadfast in your affections. Your overall attitude is amiable, exhibiting much patience in dealings with other people.

See last comment.

Quote:

You are a sensuous person who likes to indulge in healthful but always pleasurable activities.

Actually, I'm kind of an out-of-shape guy who doesn't exercise much and eats poorly.

Quote:

In spite of this, however, you have a tremendous capacity for exercising both will-power and physical strength.

Ha! Ha ha ha ha! This is a load of crapola.

Quote:

A major difficulty you encounter in life is due to your inflexibility; once you have made up your mind, you are closed to all other suggestion or opinion.

Great... so not only am I stupid, I'm also inflexible. Is it going to tell me that I'm ugly next?

[More crap skipped]

Quote:

You concentrate a great deal on your appearance and even if you are not especially beautiful or handsome, you have a quality of softness and friendliness, which endears you to many.

Why yes it is! Sort of anyway.

As far as my appearance, right now my hair has needed cutting for about a month, I'm wearing a dirty shirt, long pants with torn-up fake birkenstocks and I haven't shaved since last Friday. Sure I'm soft, but then most fat people are, right?

Nice to hear that despite being stupid, ugly, inflexible and subject to fits of anger, I'm still a lovable guy.

Quote:

You like to keep beauty and grace around you as much as possible.

Unlike all those people who only like ugly things around them.

Quote:

You have a strong affinity with nature and prefer the quiet life of the country to the plastic constructions of city life.

I hate nature. I'm moving to L.A. and I can't wait because this town of 150,000 is too small. My wife always wants me to go camping but I never will because I hate it.

Quote:

It is likely that you grew up in an atmosphere of warmth and congeniality. Now it is easy for you to project these same feelings to family and friends, and others often count on you to restore peace in difficult situations.

I guess that's basically true, at least the first part. I don't know who counts on me to restore peace but maybe someone does...

Quote:

You have strong inclinations toward music, art and drama and you may wish to cultivate a form of artistic expression.

Admittedly, this is dead-on. I make my living in the arts. Still, if this is the most accurate it can get, I'm not impressed, especially since it says that I 'may wish to' and didn't know that I spend most of my time doing just that already.

Quote:

You work very hard to get along with others, and you usually try to win arguments with diplomacy rather than force.

Okay, so I'm not an antisocial asshole. Thanks.

Quote:

Relationships are important to you, and you often go out of your way to initiate them. It is vital that your associations remain harmonious, because quarrels and disputes affect you adversely.

Disputes affect me adverseley?! NO FREAKIN' WAY! I thought I was one of those people who liked it when everybody hated me! You mean I'm NOT?

Quote:

Mars conjunct the Ascendant gives you an inexhaustible supply of energy. You are constantly in motion, but sometimes it is motion without meaning.

Nope. See tub o' lard comments from above. I spend most of my day in a chair in front of my desk and computer.

Quote:

Lacking self-discipline, you take daring and unnecessary risks when challenged. You want most of all for people to recognize your superiority.

Wow. Talk about self-contradiction. It said at the beginning that I didn't take risks and that I was self-reliant and strong. Now I'm brash and weak-willed with a big ego.

Quote:

The image you present hides a persistent inferiority complex.

Now I don't really think I hide that, do you? It's pretty out in the open.

Quote:

You probably win your arguments by making the most noise and wearing out your opponents with unceasing harassment.

What the fuck? Did it not just say that was exactly what I didn't do?

There is a hell of a lot more to this but I'm getting tired of refuting it. All in all, it's pretty much wrong about me. Thanks for reaffirming my disbelief in astrology, Volker.

echidna · 07-28-2003, 03:51 PM

Dress it up in all the pseudo-science you want, but Volker is demonstrating clear examples of :

The Forer Effect (a.k.a. the P.T. Barnum effect and subjective validation)

http://www.skepdic.com/forer.html

Quote:

Psychologist B.R. Forer found that people tend to accept vague and general personality descriptions as uniquely applicable to themselves without realizing that the same description could be applied to just about anyone. Consider the following as if it were given to you as an evaluation of your personality.

�You have a need for other people to like and admire you, and yet you tend to be critical of yourself. While you have some personality weaknesses you are generally able to compensate for them. You have considerable unused capacity that you have not turned to your advantage. Disciplined and self-controlled on the outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure on the inside. At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing. You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations. You also pride yourself as an independent thinker; and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof. But you have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others. At times you are extroverted, affable, and sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, and reserved. Some of your aspirations tend to be rather unrealistic. �

Forer gave a personality test to his students, ignored their answers, and gave each student the above evaluation. He asked them to evaluate the evaluation from 0 to 5, with "5" meaning the recipient felt the evaluation was an "excellent" assessment and "4" meaning the assessment was "good." The class average evaluation was 4.26. That was in 1948. The test has been repeated hundreds of time with psychology students and the average is still around 4.2.

While sceptics ridicule the notion that �it only works if you believe it works�, there is an element of truth to the statement. Both Confirmation Bias and the Forer Effect will clearly only work when the subject has been fooled into believing that the whatever method actually works.

As such, whether they are fraudulent examples of Confirmation Bias & the Forer Effect or not, is simply evidenced by the fact that neither Astrology, nor Volker's earlier claims of astrological links to earthquakes work either predictively or when examined objectively. They work subjectively simply because they rely entirely on these 2 human phenomena helped along with a healthy dose of gullibility.

Volker's complex (but meaningless) explanations simply reflect the need for Astrology to complicate itself in the Modern Era to remain plausible to a more sophisticated audience.

Confirmation Bias

http://www.skepdic.com/confirmbias.html

Quote:

Confirmation bias refers to a type of selective thinking whereby one tends to notice and to look for what confirms one's beliefs, and to ignore, not look for, or undervalue the relevance of what contradicts one's beliefs. For example, if one believes that during a full moon there is an increase in accidents, one will take notice when accidents occur during a full moon, but be inattentive to the moon when accidents occur during other times of the month. A tendency to do this over time unjustifiably strengthens one's belief in the relationship between the full moon and accidents.

Worth noting that we are all subject to Confirmation Bias, but that the difference between Science & Pseudoscience, is that Confirmation Bias is a liability to Science, while an essential ingredient to Pseudoscience.

Cold Reading

http://www.skepdic.com/coldread.html

Quote:

Here's another reading:

�People close to you have been taking advantage of you. Your basic honesty has been getting in your way. Many opportunities that you have had offered to you in the past have had to be surrendered because you refuse to take advantage of others. You like to read books and articles to improve your mind. In fact, if you're not already in some sort of personal service business, you should be. You have an infinite capacity for understanding people's problems and you can sympathize with them. But you are firm when confronted with obstinacy or outright stupidity. Law enforcement would be another field you understand. Your sense of justice is quite strong. �

The last one was from astrologer Sidney Omarr. He's never even met you and yet he knows so much about you (Flim-Flam!, 61). The first one was taken by Forer from a newsstand astrology book.

The selectivity of the human mind is always at work. We pick and choose what data we will remember and what we will give significance to. In part, we do so because of what we already believe or want to believe. In part, we do so in order to make sense out of what we are experiencing. We are not manipulated simply because we are gullible or suggestible, or just because the signs and symbols of the manipulator are vague or ambiguous. Even when the signs are clear and we are skeptical, we can still be manipulated. In fact, it may even be the case that particularly bright persons are more likely to be manipulated when the language is clear and they are thinking logically. To make the connections that the manipulator wants you to make, you must be thinking logically.

Volker's examples which he uses in this thread are slightly less sophisticated versions of these. He draws on broad human stereotypes with a little selectivity no doubt gleaned from reading people's posts here. Creating these truisms of human nature may seem like magic to some, but in reality they are entirely possible, simply by resorting to a little common sense assisted with a willingness to deceive.

Jesse · 07-28-2003, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
I'll play along:

1) 7/19/79 @ 5:07 PM, White Plains, NY

2) 10/26/78 @ 8:22 PM, Salt Lake City, UT

3) 3/5/77 @ 2:15 AM, Kamuela, HI

4) 1/8/76 @ 4:16 PM, San Jose, CA

OK, got 'em. Each is about 3 pages long, and it took a while to edit out all the astrological references from each, so I probably won't want to do this for more than one or two other people, although anyone who's interested could probably find someone else to do it for them.

Anyway, I don't want to clutter up this thread too much...do you want me to email them to you, or start a new thread for "blind astrology tests" and post them there?

Lobstrosity · 07-28-2003, 04:02 PM

Why don't you post them in a new thread and I will attempt to publically assess them.

Autonemesis · 07-28-2003, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Volker.Doormann
The only superstition in relation to astrology is the superstition that astrology is superstition. No one who assert, that astrology is superstition has studied astrology.

I agree. Having studied astrology myself, and learned the art of casting a horoscope, I can tell you from my own experience that it is a con game, not a superstition.

Jesse · 07-28-2003, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobstrosity
Why don't you post them in a new thread and I will attempt to publically assess them.

OK, go to the thread Blind test of astrology for the four profiles.

Bible Humper · 07-28-2003, 07:11 PM

Oh well, Volker, at least your material is much better than Astro.com's! (Judging by Arken's results)

Note the number of SPECIFIC "predictions" which all turned out wrong in Arken's "personal portrait". Your portrait of Lunachick had only 2 specifics (though they were doosies! Fearless and violent! hahaha!) so less of it could be asserted to be DEFINATELY unapplicable to her.

The manner in which you are conducting your defense of astrology speaks for itself, IMHO, so for anyone who wants the tough question answered which our friend Volker is dancing around, echidna's links should clean up any loose ends. (Thanks a lot for those, echidna! I really suck at finding GOOD sources for ANYTHING online.....)

Bible Humper · 07-28-2003, 09:05 PM

Actually, the book you recommended is not about "psychic" cold reading at all, Echidna.

It has something to do with acting auditions.

Quote:

Not What I thought It was, August 9, 2000

Reviewer: A reader from Harrisburg, PA USA

I have carefully given this book a neutral review. I purchased this book while researching a paper on how psychics and mediums perform their art. This method is often called "cold reading." This book was recommended by Amazon when I purchased other similar books. However, this book is an instructional for actors who are going to auditions. If you are an actor, this book may be wonderful, please use your own judgement. If you are looking for a book relating to mind-reading, mentalism, Tarot, etc. this book is not for you.

echidna · 07-28-2003, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bible Humper
Actually, the book you recommended is not about "psychic" cold reading at all, Echidna.

It has something to do with acting auditions.

Heh, oh yes, entirely different.

Volker.Doormann · 07-28-2003, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arken
... my comments:

Bullshit.

(Okay, we'll call this one a hit.)

So I'm stupid? Fuck you, horoscope.

I guess that's basically true, at least the first part.

Admittedly, this is dead-on.

Okay, so I'm not an antisocial asshole. Thanks.

Wow.

What the fuck?

That's the reason I have given up discussing with such people. Tell them a truth about them and you get bullet. Why people think, that they are able to judge on their self correctly, Jesse? They buy a religion called skeptic and they are immune to arguments then, but nevertheless fucking back. Science and Skeptic is for such guys only a weapon to preserve the inner stupidity and not to give prove about the personal integrity. Nature? Fuck. Truth? Fuck. Each soul is a part of god. But shit is shit. Long time people have spoken in religions, that there must be a 'washing procedure' to find the soul behind shit. Now you can imagine what this was meant. People have mixed up shit and god, which is the own soul, while the shit is the character. Because the soul is able to perceive the character in general, but not the character the soul, it takes as long as the soul is cleaned from the dirt covering the inner soul by this colorful thoughts and speech. Astrology is exact a tool, to be aware - as soul - about the shit - if one is able to see some light through all the shit around him.

BTW. I have Mars below the ascending house as Arken and Lunachick it has also. My software outputs this with: "You have energy, you are dominant, fury comes and passes quick, sometimes you use to execute your arms in the fight for your undertakings." Well, this is only one aspect of many. But think about.

Volker

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-28-2003, 04:02 PM	#64
Lobstrosity Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: San Diego, California Posts: 719	Why don't you post them in a new thread and I will attempt to publically assess them.

07-28-2003, 07:11 PM	#67
Bible Humper Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,125	Oh well, Volker, at least your material is much better than Astro.com's! (Judging by Arken's results) Note the number of SPECIFIC "predictions" which all turned out wrong in Arken's "personal portrait". Your portrait of Lunachick had only 2 specifics (though they were doosies! Fearless and violent! hahaha!) so less of it could be asserted to be DEFINATELY unapplicable to her. The manner in which you are conducting your defense of astrology speaks for itself, IMHO, so for anyone who wants the tough question answered which our friend Volker is dancing around, echidna's links should clean up any loose ends. (Thanks a lot for those, echidna! I really suck at finding GOOD sources for ANYTHING online.....)

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.