Echo

Gemma,

Can you explain this to us a little bit? How do your prayers to a god influence another person's (alleged) free choice to believe or not believe in the existence of that god?

Are you asking God to change our minds or to intervene in some way so as to make it more likely that we will change our minds?

Would he *not* have done this had you not asked him in prayer?

MrDarwin

So you believe that we have free will when we were created by an omnipotent and omniscient deity that knew our every thought and action, and whether we would be saved or not, before we even existed?

And you believe that eternal suffering was a necessary part of God's creation?

Feel free to come over and address some related issues in <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=47&t=000487" target="_blank">this discussion.</a>

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

MrDarwin

Do you believe that God wants us to understand God?

Do you believe that God wants us to understand God at least sufficiently to be saved?

If so, it does beg the question why so many people do not understand God, and therefore will not be saved, when this is the way God set it up to be right from the start.

Ion

So why do you choose to believe in something that you don't understand at all?

MrDarwin

Personally, I want to believe in that which is true. But what is true is quite independent of what I want to believe. And so far I have seen and experienced no evidence whatsoever of the existence of God as described by Christians (in fact the Christian concept of God is so inconsistent and self-contradictory that I am quite certain it is not true) so I could not believe in God even if I wanted to.

Now, how can I "choose" to serve a deity I do not believe exists in the first place?

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: MrDarwin ]</p>

DRFseven

Please answer the question instead of evading (you know, you brought this up, I didn't). Tell me how I can DECIDE to believe.

While we're at it, I can't choose my preferences, either; they occur according to my experience. I can't choose to dislike coffee (wish I could), to love someone I don't love, to prefer grapefruit over avocado, or a pink bedroom over a green one. You seem to be fond of prayer; pray tell me, then, how my choices are free.

Samhain

Gemma Therese:

I couldn't care less what Thomas Merton said about the subject. Does he have any evidence to back up that unsupported assertion? Oh, I'm sorry, that's right, there's not even any evidence for the existence of god, actually there's compelling evidence against its existence, so I guess this statement must be true. Sorry, this statement proves nothing as it has no evidence to back it up. Besides, I thought reading the Bible was supposed to give us some kind of insight about the JC god, I've read it, have you? If your god cannot possibly be understood then why do you follow so blindly? You do not experience god in any way (for if you did you'd have some kind of basis to understand the nature of god), therefore for all you know the god you follow could turn out to be Satan, could it not?

Why do you presume that I don't understand God? Your first line is an obvious attempt at poisoning the well in order to destroy the credibility of my statements. Sorry, "God" cannot exist as you think he does logically, something must be compromised. If you like, I'll place a link to the debate I had with another regarding the logical paradox of the JC god and the possibilities of such a god.

Do you realize how hateful this phrase actually is? I find this phrase alone the most offensive thing you've said yet. I'd prefer that you and other theists would strike this message from your posts as it serves no purpose towards us here besides to annoy us. Therefore this statement has no positive effect, but a negative one. I'm sure that bigotry will force you to use this statement hundreds of more times and more times than necessary. I truly find it hard to believe that such disrespect goes unnoticed so often.

Edit: Perhaps you'd actually like to take part in a point-by-point debate against my arguments instead of posting ridiculous catch-phrases next time? As I said, your arguments proved nothing, now get off the pulpit and do what we're all doing, making arguments as opposed to spouting that preach-nonsense.

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Samhain ]</p>

Ion

Gemma, you are stuck with this Merton character.
Get over him: he hasn't built any tangible material object from raw nature.

Study Fourier for example: his concepts allow humans who press buttons on the telephone, to have these buttons being recognized miles away in what is called a Central Telephone Office.
Or study similar thinkers contributing to how humans are building tangible material objects from raw nature.

Adrian

If God is infinite, omnipresent and transcendent, how exactly is it possible to be separated from him?

Where, exactly, is this "hell of separation" that God is unable to exist in? And who made it?

<img src="graemlins/banghead.gif" border="0" alt="[Bang Head]" />

Gemma Therese

Samhain,

I will gladly touch upon every point you made in your post.

You said "I couldn't care less about what Thomas Merton said on the subject."

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way, because he was a brilliant spiritual thinker and he has increased my understanding of God.

You said, "If your God cannot possibly be understood, why do you follow so blindly?"

Because I love Him so much. I do not expect you will undestand this.

You said, "You do not experience God in any way."

How do you know the ways in which I experience God? For starters, I experience Him in the Blessed Sacrament, when I behold the power of the ocean, and in people. Thomas Merton said, "The quietness and hiddenness and placidity of the truly good people in the world all proclaim the glory of God."

You said, "Why do you presume that I don't understand God?"

Well, for starters, God exists, so right off the bat you have an issue understanding God. Even the great religious thinkers (St. Teresa of Avila, St. Augustine, St. Therese of Lisieux, St. John of the Cross) did and could not have fully understood God. It is a human limitation. I do not understand nuclear physics, but I know it exists.


You said, "Do you realize how malicious this phrase [In God's Love] actually is? I find this phrase alone the most offensive thing you've said yet. I'd prefer that you and other theists would strike this message from your posts as it serves no purpose towards us here besides to annoy us. Therefore this statement has no positive effect, but a negative one. I'm sure that bigotry will force you to use this statement hundreds of more times and more times than necessary. I truly find it hard to believe that such disrespect goes unnoticed so often."

Well, just so you know, I'm "offensive" and "disrepectful" to everyone, including fellow Catholics, because I sign all my communiques "In God's Love". Why is it so offensive if you don't believe in God? Is it just something else to huff and puff about?

In God's Love,

Gemma Therese

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]

[ May 29, 2002: Message edited by: Gemma Therese ]</p>