Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The AntiChris · 04-28-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
If everything else I attested to was true, wouldn't it give credence to the final argument - that despite the truth, pushing to change the societal norm to something not even remotely possible would be mentally unhealthful?

I have to say that your anti-vegetarian stance, "attesting to the truth", has a strong flavour of the religiously evangelical about it.

Quote:

Just FYI - I consider belief in God to be a form of mental illness as well

I have grave doubts about the reasoning processes that lead anyone to supernatural beliefs. However, I've never thought that it was a great debating strategy to accuse one's opponents of mental health problems.

Chris

SmashingIdols · 04-28-2002, 02:27 PM

Chris,

That is a distortion of my argument above, and not a tactic at all.

Read it again. I am stating that doing the full list before it amounts, to the best of my reasoning, to mental illness - at the very minimum an extremely fanatical eating disorder with an extremist agenda!

You are the one employing tactics against someone with clearly MODERATE views on the subject.

Once again I believe in REDUCTION not ELIMINATION.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]

SmashingIdols · 04-28-2002, 02:30 PM

Look, let me clarify the statement.

Quote:

I believe that the elimination of animal product consumption on the entire planet would be unnatural, nutrionally unsound, environmentally unsustainable, socially repressive, and mentally ill.

Quoted from my opening statement. Read it.

[ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]

droolian · 04-28-2002, 11:05 PM

SmashingIdols: Read it again. I am stating that doing the full list before it amounts, to the best of my reasoning, to mental illness - at the very minimum an extremely fanatical eating disorder with an extremist agenda!

Quote:

ADA quotes: Studies indicate that vegetarians often have lower morbidity (1) and mortality (2) rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do nonvegetarians…
…that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.
Vegetarian diets low in fat or saturated fat have been used successfully as part of comprehensive health programs to reverse severe coronary artery disease…
…Type 2 diabetes mellitus is much less likely to be a cause of death in vegetarians than nonvegetarians, perhaps because of their higher intake of complex carbohydrates and lower body mass index (12).

Doesn’t sound extremist to be vegetarian to me.

SmashingIdols: Once again I believe in REDUCTION not ELIMINATION.

That’d be wonderful. If man just reduced to the 1.5 percent dietary intake of flesh that chimps consume, just imagine the health benefits, reduction of animal suffering, and environmental impact that would occur. I don’t think I’m better than anyone else, but I still wouldn’t eat meat. Smoking wouldn’t be very harmful once a week either, but I still wouldn’t do it.

Quote:

BBCnews: They have found that men who eat a vegan diet have lower levels of a growth factor that is associated with prostate cancer than either meat-eaters or vegetarians.

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_782000/782959.stm" target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/health/newsid_782000/782959.stm</a>

It doesn’t sound an extremist diet to Mr. Happy or his affiliate organs either

I quess this may be considered for vain reasons, but notice the cnn post below as well.

Quote:

John McDougall, MD: He points out (Dr. Masumi Inaba) an undisputed observation: a direct correlation between increased levels of animal fats (saturated fats that are eaten bymales in Japan), increased levels of sebaceous gland activity in the scalps of those men, and an increased incidence of male pattern baldness in Japanese during the
past 40 years. Before WW II almost every Japanese man in Japan had a full head of
hair. When they move to Hawaii or California, or change their diet in Japan, as
many have recently done, a number of Japanese men have become bald--just as do
white and black American males.

Quote:

CNN: The new report, published Monday, says men who are losing hair on the crown of their heads have up to a 36 percent greater risk of heart problems, including heart attacks and bypass surgery.

<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/01/24/baldness.heart/" target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/01/24/baldness.heart/</a>

If wanting to not look like these guys that look fifty when they’re thirty is extreme, I’m there.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: droolian ]

The AntiChris · 04-28-2002, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SmashingIdols:
That is a distortion of my argument above, and not a tactic at all.

Read it again. I am stating that doing the full list before it amounts, to the best of my reasoning, to mental illness - at the very minimum an extremely fanatical eating disorder with an extremist agenda!

I'm sorry you felt I was distorting your words - I've looked back and can't see what would make you think this.

As you point out, you make a number of points worthy of debate. However, the accusation of "mental health problems" is unnecessary to your argument and is insulting to the many people who have chosen a meat-free lifestyle.

Chris

SmashingIdols · 04-29-2002, 07:26 AM

Quote:

the accusation of "mental health problems" is unnecessary to your argument and is insulting to the many people who have chosen a meat-free lifestyle.

Once again you are distorting my words.

A. Vegetarianism often includes animal protiens (eggs, fish, milk, etc.). Therefore my statement above must only apply to a small percentage of vegetarians. You make it sound as if I am saying everybody who doesn't eat meat is a nut. (Now I know what's wrong with my entire family...).

B. There is a fantatical element to vegetarianism that is the desire to cover the earth with a particular diet which is simply impossible for all homo-sapiens to abide by for the afore-mentioned reasons. That diet is the complete elimination of animal protiens. Anybody who honestly is attempting to completely abolish animal protiens from the diet of every human being currently living on the planet must have mental issues. The agenda is insane, and runs counter to all of the information currently available. I cannot believe you would think this agenda mentally healthful. It is classic fanaticism. Yet it is the stated goals of numerous organizations, and is often quoted by vegetarians "If only everybody just stopped eating [name your offensive food here]." The point being (my point at least) that vegetarianism can only be situational, and therefore cannot be presented as some enlightened morality.

Fanaticism of any type is mentally unhealthful, with or without Orthorexia Nervosa.

Why not just work through the whole statement, one point at a time?

SmashingIdols · 04-29-2002, 10:23 AM

Droolian:

Check your facts once again.

A. You honestly think that eating animal-proteins leads to baldness? Baldness is Hereditary not Dietical. I cannot believe you posted such rubbish as above. Baldness is genetic. Don't you even want to question any organization that publishes such rubbish?

The link to the CNN page you provided clearly mentions the [genetic condition] of high testosterone as the culprit in both baldness and coronary disease. Putting this together with the untenable statements above it is as propagandist as only mentioning [non-verified] water consumption rates alongside US Agriculture Department information - unrelated correlations lending credence to an argument.

You haven't attended any sessions on informational structuring strategies have you?

B. Chimpanzees consume much more than 1.5% animal proteins - a figure actually relevent to Mountain Gorillas. Unless you are not counting insect matter (bodys, larvaee, eggs). Even then the 1.5 figure is incorrect.

C. The ADA numbers do nothing to adjust for specific diet needs, other than recommending consultation of a physician. What if you have specific allergies, (soy and wheat being extremely common ones) as an example?

Furthermore, where is the ADA statement regarding the dangers associated with high Soy intake, like <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/Refs/Brain.htm" target="_blank">neurological damage</a>(and <a href="http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html" target="_blank">here)</a>? Soy is frequently used by people transitioning to vegetarianism/veganism, and an ADA recommended protien source! Once again, the ADA is not citing current research. It has also been noted that soy consumption can be related to reduction in DNA synthesis, the results of which could be catastrophic for neural tissue (<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=10486185&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b/" target="_blank">Here)</a>.

Additionally, <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/soytox.htm" target="_blank">Soy has naturally occuring toxins</a>, and curently there is no legislation protecting consumers from risks related (other than infants from Soy Formula). Read <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/files/nctrpti.doc" target="_blank">Dr. Sheehan's Letter to the FDA</a> demanding intervention!

Ask the ADA to respond to this.

D. Let's not bring anecdotal evidence into the picture, as you did above with the happy vegan guy in the UK. There was a vegan who died at 31, to the shock of the vegan community at large! Let's leave the anecdotal evidence to the tobacco companies - that's their venue.

Once again I will state that vegetarian literature paints a very one sided, often scientifically incorrect, view of the facts.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]

daemon · 04-29-2002, 02:35 PM

Okay, I feel forced to ask: how accurate is the information on <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/" target="_blank">this site?</a> It has a lot of the hallmarks of crackpot sites--paranoid tone and belief in a powerful conspiracy, specifically--yet it has more scientific backing in terms of related studies than any I've seen. Anyone?

This is not the sort of thing I want to read after starting to consume protein supplement bars that use a good chunk of soy protein...

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]

SmashingIdols · 04-29-2002, 06:30 PM

Actually, on this subject at least, they appear to be dead on the money.

Soy has natural toxins. Raw soy could be dangerous - ie soy milk, soy powder, etc. Currently the FDA does not regulate supplements, which soy products are usually labeled as.

The manufacturing process of Tofu has been called a "Miracle Invention" due to the effect of the nigari neutralizing the toxins. There is a great Discovery Channel treatment of this, if I can locate the information I will post it.

Tofu has neutralized toxins, however still has some negative effects - mainly just aging of the neural tissue (atrophy of the brain) leading to reduced cognitive abilities and perhaps even dementia. I addressed this above in my concerns over the link between isaflavones and reduction of DNA synthesis and the aging study in Hawaii which showed significant loss of weight in brains linked to tofu consumption. Scary?

This is especially disturbing as so many advocates and advocacy groups of a vegetarian/vegan diet recommend soy products without supplying this information. I do not believe they do this purposely, just from ignorance.

I have heard it said that Soy may be the "lead cookware" of our civilization.

[ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]

daemon · 04-29-2002, 10:38 PM

I dunno, I'm still distrustful... this site pegged my loony detector.

04-28-2002, 02:27 PM	#12
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Chris, That is a distortion of my argument above, and not a tactic at all. Read it again. I am stating that doing the full list before it amounts, to the best of my reasoning, to mental illness - at the very minimum an extremely fanatical eating disorder with an extremist agenda! You are the one employing tactics against someone with clearly MODERATE views on the subject. Once again I believe in REDUCTION not ELIMINATION. [ April 28, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>

04-29-2002, 10:23 AM	#17
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Droolian: Check your facts once again. A. You honestly think that eating animal-proteins leads to baldness? Baldness is Hereditary not Dietical. I cannot believe you posted such rubbish as above. Baldness is genetic. Don't you even want to question any organization that publishes such rubbish? The link to the CNN page you provided clearly mentions the [genetic condition] of high testosterone as the culprit in both baldness and coronary disease. Putting this together with the untenable statements above it is as propagandist as only mentioning [non-verified] water consumption rates alongside US Agriculture Department information - unrelated correlations lending credence to an argument. You haven't attended any sessions on informational structuring strategies have you? B. Chimpanzees consume much more than 1.5% animal proteins - a figure actually relevent to Mountain Gorillas. Unless you are not counting insect matter (bodys, larvaee, eggs). Even then the 1.5 figure is incorrect. C. The ADA numbers do nothing to adjust for specific diet needs, other than recommending consultation of a physician. What if you have specific allergies, (soy and wheat being extremely common ones) as an example? Furthermore, where is the ADA statement regarding the dangers associated with high Soy intake, like <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/Refs/Brain.htm" target="_blank">neurological damage</a>(and <a href="http://starbulletin.com/1999/11/19/news/story4.html" target="_blank">here)</a>? Soy is frequently used by people transitioning to vegetarianism/veganism, and an ADA recommended protien source! Once again, the ADA is not citing current research. It has also been noted that soy consumption can be related to reduction in DNA synthesis, the results of which could be catastrophic for neural tissue (<a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/htbin-post/Entrez/query?uid=10486185&form=6&db=m&Dopt=b/" target="_blank">Here)</a>. Additionally, <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/soytox.htm" target="_blank">Soy has naturally occuring toxins</a>, and curently there is no legislation protecting consumers from risks related (other than infants from Soy Formula). Read <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/files/nctrpti.doc" target="_blank">Dr. Sheehan's Letter to the FDA</a> demanding intervention! Ask the ADA to respond to this. D. Let's not bring anecdotal evidence into the picture, as you did above with the happy vegan guy in the UK. There was a vegan who died at 31, to the shock of the vegan community at large! Let's leave the anecdotal evidence to the tobacco companies - that's their venue. Once again I will state that vegetarian literature paints a very one sided, often scientifically incorrect, view of the facts. [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>

04-29-2002, 02:35 PM	#18
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	Okay, I feel forced to ask: how accurate is the information on <a href="http://www.soyonlineservice.co.nz/" target="_blank">this site?</a> It has a lot of the hallmarks of crackpot sites--paranoid tone and belief in a powerful conspiracy, specifically--yet it has more scientific backing in terms of related studies than any I've seen. Anyone? This is not the sort of thing I want to read after starting to consume protein supplement bars that use a good chunk of soy protein... [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: daemon ]</p>

04-29-2002, 06:30 PM	#19
SmashingIdols Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: USA Posts: 153	Actually, on this subject at least, they appear to be dead on the money. Soy has natural toxins. Raw soy could be dangerous - ie soy milk, soy powder, etc. Currently the FDA does not regulate supplements, which soy products are usually labeled as. The manufacturing process of Tofu has been called a "Miracle Invention" due to the effect of the nigari neutralizing the toxins. There is a great Discovery Channel treatment of this, if I can locate the information I will post it. Tofu has neutralized toxins, however still has some negative effects - mainly just aging of the neural tissue (atrophy of the brain) leading to reduced cognitive abilities and perhaps even dementia. I addressed this above in my concerns over the link between isaflavones and reduction of DNA synthesis and the aging study in Hawaii which showed significant loss of weight in brains linked to tofu consumption. Scary? This is especially disturbing as so many advocates and advocacy groups of a vegetarian/vegan diet recommend soy products without supplying this information. I do not believe they do this purposely, just from ignorance. I have heard it said that Soy may be the "lead cookware" of our civilization. [ April 29, 2002: Message edited by: SmashingIdols ]</p>

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04-29-2002, 10:38 PM	#20
daemon Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 737	I dunno, I'm still distrustful... this site pegged my loony detector.

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