cheetah

I don't think anyone here is trying to do that. Speaking for myself at least, I just don't appreciate being told that my relationship, which I consider productive, loving and strong, is contributing to the downfall of society. We aren't asking that our way become the norm, and don't ask that the "old way" be abolished, but that people accept that new ways can be and are valid. yguy is the only one trying to define things to include only his views.

oh, and are we going to follow up on that topic, fatherphil? Re: my last post about the differences between marriage and non-marriage? I'm really interested to hear some feedback...

Daleth

fatherphil,

It's not that I want to dissect word for word what yguy says. I know sometimes we all say things that if dissected aren't exactly what we meant after all. I simply want an explanation of the foundation of his philosophy about gender issues. We get a lot of statements about the natural and the obvious and the intuitive. But none of the things that are supposed to be obvious are obvious to me or to most of the other posters here. In order to understand, I need an explanation beyond merely obvious.

Yes. I define male and female characteristics in the way my culture taught me to, based on what are either outdated or overgeneralized stereotypes. I don't like that, but I do it. I don't think calling them male and female traits is more true than calling them orange and green traits. It's just the way I learned to associate things. I prefer to think of people as individuals first, because we all have traits all over the spectrum from traditionally male to traditionally female.

I don't know whether they are the exception or the norm at this point. I don't think it matters. All I'm trying to say is that different family structures are acceptable. yguy is saying that they are not, that they are dangerous to society as a whole. I have no desire to change the way others choose to live their lives. If a husband-headed family suits a couple, that's absolutely fine with me.

Dal

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by yguy
Inadvertently. Do you believe me?

Have you given me any reason to?

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by fatherphil
i have little interest in discussions that amount to a sentence by sentence dissection of a post.

Do you also have little interest in answering questions you were asked?

one thing to note, the holder of the "final dicision" stamp does not always decides the issue in their own favor but must always take full resposibility for the outcome whichever way it goes.

Do you think women are less capable of taking full responsibility for their behavior and decisions than men are?

question: do you differentiate male/female characteristics by any other way besides physical traits?

I don't limit nurturing to women and authoritativeness to men, if that's what you're getting at. I think some women can be strong leaders and some men can be wonderful with kids - I have examples in my own family. Therefore, I'm with Daleth : different family structures are acceptable. In other words, let people choose what works for them.

also is there a tendency for women to want to marry a man who is able to support them rather than the other way around?

What is "the other way around"? For a woman to support a man, or for a woman to support herself?

i guess my main question is why folks want to redefine the normal trend to include there own tendencies rather than just accepting that they may be the exception to the norm ?

What cheetah said. Moreover, keep in mind that what was normal a hundred years ago might not be normal now, and vice versa - votes for black people being one example of my point.

yguy

If you don't, then there is no point in continuing the discussion, because you are convinced that I'm disingenuous. When I sense that my opponent is not arguing in good faith, it is grounds for terminating the debate. If that's what you think I am, you are wasting your time with me.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by yguy
If you don't,

We haven't established that. I asked if you had given me reason to believe that you genuinely misinterpreted a point.

then there is no point in continuing the discussion,

There is indeed little point if you are incapable of/unwilling to address my questions.

because you are convinced that I'm disingenuous.

I'm convinced you are a great many things, actually.

When I sense that my opponent is not arguing in good faith,

...and is probably not submitting to a man's natural authority either.

it is grounds for terminating the debate.

Just curious - how do you sense than an opponent is not arguing in good faith? Is this intuitive knowledge that all children are born with?

If that's what you think I am, you are wasting your time with me.

I think you should let me be the judge of how my time is spent.

yguy

To be sure. Likewise, I am the judge of how mine is spent. I choose not to spend time being used for entertainment purposes unless I get something out of the deal. Since such compensation is obviously not forthcoming, the discussion is over. I'll answer your above quesitons in due time for Dal's sake, but don't respond to my answers in the contemptuous manner that you have heretofore and expect a response from me.

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by yguy
I choose not to spend time being used for entertainment purposes

Yes, this sounds as though it might go against proper gender roles.

unless I get something out of the deal. Since such compensation is obviously not forthcoming,

What compensation were you hoping to get?

the discussion is over.

Rather prematurely, but don't worry. I'm sure it happens to lots of people.

I'll answer your above quesitons in due time for Dal's sake,

How kind of you. I look forward to responding to your answers, or lack thereof.

but don't respond to my answers in the contemptuous manner that you have heretofore and expect a response from me.

Was there some point during our discussion when I implicitly agreed to show respect no matter what you said?

Bree

Please, oh please don't say it's because Adam was created first, in God's image.

Dr Rick