Shake

NonHomogenized, an excellent post! I'd also like to congratulate Gurdur on this excellent thread! Really one of the best discussions I've seen on any of these forums ... errr, fora.

Anyway, NonHomogenized, you said:Have you checked out the Atheists Meetup site to find out if there are any like minded people in your area? I've only been once, but I'd like to go back as I met some cool people and we had some good discussions. Sorry to the non-Americans about this as Meetup seems to be a largely US thing so far, but maybe it'll catch on.

I enjoy the phrase which I've seen on these boards that organizing atheists is like herding cats. As far as trying to not be too exclusive, I think that's what the Brights are trying to do, although the idea has largely fizzled here at II.

Gurdur

hmmmm.
Going back to my 11th-15th century women mystic examples, they acheived notoriety through their religiousity, even to the point of getting themselves burnt at the stake for publishing their theological ideas.

What you mean is "established religion" rather than "religion", but even then it can be vague. My previous examples of the various churches approving homo partnerships is relevant here.

Many Nazis are very unChristian, to the point of being bizarre Wodan-worshippers, atheists, or vague, vague bollocks-artists.

I'll answer much more in depth later tomorrow, sorry; I've been beating up on someone advocating paedophilia in the Moral Discussions forum, and the effort drains me.

And that illustrates a failing of this board: owing to a general Worship Of Pure Reason, there's often a very muddled, self-destructive and ineffective response to when someone uses that to push morally abhorrant ideas.
But I'll tackle that in depth tomorrow.

Gurdur

The point I'm aiming at is that many atheists are simply too self-centered and wishy-washy in philosophy to be effective; they couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery or an orgy in a bordello.

I have quite mixed feelings about the Brights.
I'm not going to join their campaign, since I think the aims and means are wrong, but I will be interested to see if they make headway.
I am not deeply opposed to them, I simply think they're muchy irrelevant.

Gurdur

uh huh ?
Please take a look at the garbage good Rational Atheists can come out with in the Political Discussions forum here.
I mean, so far when it comes to the social and enviromental world, I see no evidence at all that atheists are any more rational than say Christians or Ba'hai.

Please keep in mind I speak more from a global perspective, and hardly ever from a USA perspective.
Join the club.

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I get sometimes in realworld life too.
Mind you, I often get slammed here for being a crypto-theist.
Merely because I refuse to join mob-mentalities, and have a big mouth.

Just doesn't seem fair, does it ? heh.

I have a couple of suggestions to those wanting strict church/state seperation in the USA; and that is, form alliances.

I'll go into later just how so many here refuse point-blank to form alliances.

As for the rest, my point is that humanism is more important than atheism. So getting a diverse group of atheists ---- many deeply anti-humanist --- to work together is not something I'ld do, most of the time.
My only point was that that is to me a silly argument which would be better off left alone; yet it's one that comes up often.
Yeah., but people here consistantly extrapolate from the 20th/21st century USA as though it is true for the world.
Big mistake.
That's an interesting point.
IOW, you see American Atheists as having pissed in the common swimming pool for all atheists.
Perhaps.
OTOH, there's a Secular Party in Israel, doing well too.
Maybe the answer as I suggested is that atheists simply have little pressing to say to Americans as a whole at the moment.

Many thanks for your comments, and for taking the time.
I'll answer in fuller detail tomorrow.

NonHomogenized

Yes, I am a member, but, until now, there have not been enough members here for a meetup to actually occur (there are 2 others registered), and, while I could travel to Harrisburg, Lancaster, or York, this isn't particularly reasonable for me.

Fair enough. I'll admit, I avoid PD for exactly that reason.
But, I am more likely to find better decisions made by someone with a logical lack of religious beliefs than I am someone with illogical religious beliefs, just as I am more likely to get good decisions from people with well thought out and humanitarian political beliefs than I am from those without.
Atheism is not my sole criterion, far from it. But in order to get the best decisions possible, it is my opinion that I would be better off working with atheists, rather than theists.


Gee... almost makes you wonder if there isn't really a big sky daddy watching over us all... oh, wait

Seriously, while such a response doesn't really bother me that much (I'm one of those people who doesn't particularly care what almost anyone thinks of me), it is contrary to the goal of improving people's opinions of atheists.


I know what you mean about alliances. While I'm willing to work with pretty much anyone to accomplish a goal, I find that many people here seem opposed to working with radically different groups towards a common interest.

As regards the atheist/agnostic thing, I realized that it was an example of a silly behavior, and I didn't mean to untrivialize it. I was simply observing that, while it certainly isn't meritorious of significant discussion, both sides have a valid point.

And I look forward to reading a more in-depth reply.

Virgil Tibbs

It's my theory (although I don't have the means to test it) that this sort of thing often happens due to deconversions from theism. When a person abandons theism there is a danger of "throwing the baby out with the bath water." That is, the new atheist, resentful about being fooled for so long by supernaturalism, throws away what few components of his former religion were sensible in order to distance him or herself from the religion.

One prediction I'll make based on this theory is that ultra-wishy-washy moral relativism (of the "I can't judge anything" variety) and nihilism will both be more common among atheists who deconverted from theism than atheists who were never indoctrinated in the first place. I pick those two because they could be seen as diametrically opposed to the objective morality of most theist religions.

Tibbs

Gurdur

uffff !

Now that's a damned interesting theory.
I disagree on the whole (and I'll write more later as just to why), but I am very glad that you should toss such thoughts into this conversation.
Bouncing such various, non-adversarial far-branching thoughts off each other are exactly the kind of conversation I prefer in real life too.
In fact, many thanks to you and NonHomogenized for this wide-ranging conversation !

HelenM

I find it interesting that there are a few viewpoints expressed on IIDB - albeit maybe only a few - which theists, atheists and everyone else are pretty much united in opposing - such as 'children love sex'.

Helen

Luiseach

*bump*

Gurdur

Yeah, whip me, Luiseach. Make me feel all guilty, why don't you ?

I think it's your favourite amusement.

OK, OK, I got distracted by beating up paedophiles.
But I'll get back here very soon (and Politics of Language a bit later).
Hey, I'm sorry.