Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kilgore Trout · 07-01-2003, 01:52 PM

Rational BAC said:

Quote:

So I say if Magus wants to call himself a Messianic Jew---Nothing wrong with that and it is an honest position. Just reverting to an earlier time and an earlier belief.

You are right. People can call themselves Messianic Jews. People have the "right" to call themselves anything they want. In our world A Jew can worship the Hindu gods if he wants to. But, according to the Torah, any Jew who worships other gods is supposed to be executed.

Deut. 13:1-6 says any prophet who tries to lead you away from the life the lord has commanded is a false prophet and must be put to death, even if he performs miracles and his predictions come true.

Deut 12:32 says:

Quote:

"Do everything I have commanded you; do not add anything to it or take anything away from it"

Jesus added and took away from the Jewish laws. Matthew 5 has many examples where he changes the law. Jesus was leading them away from the life god had commanded so he is a false prophet.

Magus55 said:

Quote:

We don't dismiss the law, we do as Paul stated - establish it.

Magus, Paul is constantly saying the law is over. Where do you get the idea that Paul thinks you are supposed to think about the law at all? He thinks circumsicion is no longer needed. Anybody who thinks Paul says law law has any validity anymore must not read Paul at all. Since Paul thinks Jews don't need to follow the law he is obviously a false prophet due to Deut 13. He is a lot more explicit that Jesus is that that law is over.

Magus55 said:

Quote:

No, it is not an oxymoron to be a Messianic Jew, no matter what you may want to think. A Messianic Jew, is a Jew who realizes that Jesus Christ, is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament and He came to Earth to fullfill the OT and set up a new covenant for us to gain salvation by

So I guess it is not an oymoron to be a christian who believes David Koresh is the second coming of Jesus and any "christian" who doesn't see that is just blinded from the truth.

Secular Pinoy · 07-01-2003, 02:40 PM

The thing is, Magus is equivocating two different things. He's using Jew in the ethnic sense and also in the religious sense. He may be ethnically Jewish, but in religious matters he's a Christian. It's like saying that I'm a Messianic Druid just because I'm of Celtic origin (I'm not Celtic, just hypothetical) and that I believe in Jesus. Fine, let him call himself a Christian of Jewish descent, but he cannot possibly use Messianic Judaism without being dishonest.

EstherRose · 07-01-2003, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Paul is constantly saying the law is over. Where do you get the idea that Paul thinks you are supposed to think about the law at all? He thinks circumsicion is no longer needed. Anybody who thinks Paul says law has any validity anymore must not read Paul at all.

There is a big difference in following the law in order to be saved and following the law as a guideline but placing your faith in Jesus in order to be saved. Paul was against following the law in order to be saved. He was not against following the law as a guide in your life or out of personal preference. Where you placed your hope for eternal life was the important part. Only in Jesus can we count on eternal life.

Rational BAC · 07-01-2003, 03:11 PM

I think the answer is absurdly simple------------

Magus is exactly like a Jew from the latter part of the first century who happened to honestly believe that Christ was the Saviour foretold.

End of story.

End of discussion------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------

Are we all going to continue with this current day politically correct nonsense?

Or will we go back to the 1st century ---where the only reliable truth behind Magus's position lies?

Let us all be at least a little honest here. Magus is absolutely correct on this one. And the rest of you all are just fudging.

Magus55 · 07-01-2003, 03:29 PM

Quote:

If ALL other groups of Jews, who have been around about 8,000 years, reject Messianic Jews, who have only sprung up in the 1970s, and are proven to be funded by Evangelical Christian organizations, and NOT Jewish Charitable organizations, then that tells me that the other 4 groups of Jews do NOT support Messianic Jews.

Jews have only been around for about 4000 years, not 8000 - orthodox Judaism accepts the belief in about a 6000 year old world. The Covenant with Abraham wasn't made until about the mid 2000's BC. And, Messianic Judaism did not start 30 years ago, the Apostles were the first Messianic Jews - 2000 years ago. Now how about dropping it Opera Nut? Its extremely rude and ignorant of you to go around claiming you have the perfect knowledge of what my faith is, and if it doesn't agree with your view of it - its a disgrace. I am a Jew, born of a Jewish mother, I celebrate all the Jewish holidays and went to synagogue when I was younger. I used to speak Hebrew. But I am also a Christian in that I follow Jesus Christ. Thats what a Messianic Jew is, and no it is not an oxymoron whether you think so or not. Just because mainstream Judaism doesn't accept it, doesn't mean its wrong. God said many Jews would reject Jesus as the Messiah - the ones that didn't, are Messianic. You are an atheist - you aren't even a Jew - so get off your high horse and stop acting like you know what my religion is.

Biff the unclean · 07-01-2003, 03:38 PM

So this would be under the sub-grouping of the famous "self hating Jew."

Opera Nut · 07-01-2003, 05:14 PM

You don't get brainstrain from holding two mutually exclusive points of view at the same time. One must have at least two functioning brain cells for that, I would imagine.

Besides, even if I WAS a Jew you wouldn't listen to my logic, since it's mainstream Jewish logic. Your pitiful little conception of religion is very sad.

There are no established theological schools for Messianic Jews.
That's because they are Christians and their ministers go to Christian seminaries and then dress up like rabbis. A very sad appropriation and fraud committed on the rich cultural heritage of the Jewish religion. Extremely sad.

Opera Nut · 07-01-2003, 05:22 PM

Your logic is exactly like that of all Christians that I have ever met -- NON-logic.

You wouldn't know about cognitive dissonance. It's somewhat like dissociating but not quite.

Hope you enjoy feeling persecuted. I'm certainly not impressed.

Magus55 · 07-01-2003, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Opera Nut
Hope you enjoy feeling persecuted. I'm certainly not impressed.

Jhn 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.

Jhn 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Jhn 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Nope, don't particular care.

Biff the unclean · 07-01-2003, 07:14 PM

Wow Magus had those quotes right at his finger tips. ON must be "psychic"

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07-01-2003, 02:40 PM	#22
Secular Pinoy Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Quezon City, Philippines Posts: 1,994	The thing is, Magus is equivocating two different things. He's using Jew in the ethnic sense and also in the religious sense. He may be ethnically Jewish, but in religious matters he's a Christian. It's like saying that I'm a Messianic Druid just because I'm of Celtic origin (I'm not Celtic, just hypothetical) and that I believe in Jesus. Fine, let him call himself a Christian of Jewish descent, but he cannot possibly use Messianic Judaism without being dishonest.

07-01-2003, 03:11 PM	#24
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	I think the answer is absurdly simple------------ Magus is exactly like a Jew from the latter part of the first century who happened to honestly believe that Christ was the Saviour foretold. End of story. End of discussion------------------ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Are we all going to continue with this current day politically correct nonsense? Or will we go back to the 1st century ---where the only reliable truth behind Magus's position lies? Let us all be at least a little honest here. Magus is absolutely correct on this one. And the rest of you all are just fudging.

07-01-2003, 03:38 PM	#26
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	So this would be under the sub-grouping of the famous "self hating Jew."

07-01-2003, 05:14 PM	#27
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	You don't get brainstrain from holding two mutually exclusive points of view at the same time. One must have at least two functioning brain cells for that, I would imagine. Besides, even if I WAS a Jew you wouldn't listen to my logic, since it's mainstream Jewish logic. Your pitiful little conception of religion is very sad. There are no established theological schools for Messianic Jews. That's because they are Christians and their ministers go to Christian seminaries and then dress up like rabbis. A very sad appropriation and fraud committed on the rich cultural heritage of the Jewish religion. Extremely sad.

07-01-2003, 05:22 PM	#28
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Your logic is exactly like that of all Christians that I have ever met -- NON-logic. You wouldn't know about cognitive dissonance. It's somewhat like dissociating but not quite. Hope you enjoy feeling persecuted. I'm certainly not impressed.

07-01-2003, 07:14 PM	#30
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Wow Magus had those quotes right at his finger tips. ON must be "psychic"

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