Freethought & Rationalism Archive

niggle · 07-06-2003, 08:24 AM

I tried reading the entire "Gay marriage in Canada" thread in MF&P. I really did, buy Yguy's nonsense just got to me after a while. I lost it during page 7. I couldn't take anymore of that hateful bigot.

But while I was reading I kept thinking "Why should there be marriage at all? What value does it have (outside of legal benefits) that a loving relationship without marriage be without?"

I realize there are legal benefits to marriage, but law can be changed so that those benefits can be given to those who aren't married.

Isn't marriage an outdated institution or is there something more I'm missing?

(Never been married or close to it perhaps I'm just missing something)

Loren Pechtel · 07-06-2003, 10:02 AM

I agree with you. To me, marriage is a piece of paper. To me, the primary reason to get married was to get her legal status here. The important date to me is when she moved in with me. More than once we have *BOTH* forgotten our anniversary.

seebs · 07-06-2003, 10:34 AM

Well, there's several different questions here, and I think you're just confusing the issue by tying them all together.

1. Piece of paper.
2. Legal benefits, generally associated with piece of paper.
3. Committed relationship.

These three things are all separate. You can get the legal benefits by being "common-law married". You can have a committed relationship that isn't legally recognized.

The reason for there to be any legal concept of "marriage" at all is largely a historical one - to protect the rights of the women, who were presumed unable to fend for themselves, and of any children. However, even today, we find that civil marriage helps establish some rules that may be useful.

If you look at the kind of legal benefits associated with marriage, they're all focused on stuff entirely separate from romance, but very well suited to the building of small societal "units" with greater cohesion than average joes on the street have.

I think that saying "marriage is a piece of paper" is rather missing the point. Marriage is the thing *you* did. *Civil* marriage is a "piece of paper", but the thing it's trying to represent is something else entirely.

livius drusus · 07-06-2003, 10:50 AM

Hello niggle. There have been a couple of recent threads on this very topic which have covered much ground. Check out:

Felicia · 07-06-2003, 11:37 AM

I have been married 14 years and it is not a piece of paper to me. It is the fact that I met this man & I wanted him in my life until the day I died. Marriage is a lost institution anymore....with all the cheating...divorce rate and so on.

We both wanted children and I certainly do believe that children need the influence and love of both parents. And it also adds to their security if both parents are on the premises, respecting and loving one another.

and that piece of paper....well sometimes it doesn't mean a thing!!!!

JGL53 · 07-06-2003, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seebs
.....The reason for there to be any legal concept of "marriage" at all is largely a historical one - to protect the rights of the women, who were presumed unable to fend for themselves, and of any children.

Wow. That's what's called 'hitting the nail on the head.'.

The rights of (many if not most) women and ALL children need protecting today, and will for the forseeable future. Ergo, if legal marriage is junked (not too likely, I'm thinking) it would have to be replaced with some law providing the same protections. So what would be the point of junking it?

BTW, I'm a male with NO desire for children and a limited income. I would have to be a fool, I think, to get married. But that's just me.

Loren Pechtel · 07-06-2003, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JGL53
BTW, I'm a male with NO desire for children and a limited income. I would have to be a fool, I think, to get married. But that's just me.

We didn't have much when we got married. Children were hardly a topic at all--we both knew we didn't want them and that the other one didn't want them.

ohwilleke · 07-06-2003, 06:17 PM

To be a bit less practical, people have a natural tendency to pair bond. We aren't always perfectly true to it forever, but monogramy or serial monogamy is far more common even among the unmarried, than true promiscuity. Given that, it is appropriate to give this special connection in our lives meaning and recognition.

Gay marriage is in part a recognition that many gays and lesbians share the same tendency to pair bond that straights do and similarly want to give that special relationship meaning and recognition.

niggle · 07-06-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ohwilleke
To be a bit less practical, people have a natural tendency to pair bond. We aren't always perfectly true to it forever, but monogramy or serial monogamy is far more common even among the unmarried, than true promiscuity. Given that, it is appropriate to give this special connection in our lives meaning and recognition.

I'm all for monogamy, I just wonder what is the point of giving it a special ceremony and legal status, it doesn't sound very romantic to me.

Sakpo · 07-06-2003, 09:41 PM

There are some useful aspects to having legally recognized marriages. Allowing spouses from other countries to immigrate would be an obvious one. I know the OP specified "apart from legal benefits," this is more just in response to the idea I have heard elsewhere that we should scrap government recognized marriage altogether. The legal aspects are quite useful.

As far as what the OP asked, I don't know. I guess getting a group of people together and publically tying themselves to their mate gives people a real kick.

07-06-2003, 08:24 AM	#1
niggle Senior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 746	Why have marriage at all? I tried reading the entire "Gay marriage in Canada" thread in MF&P. I really did, buy Yguy's nonsense just got to me after a while. I lost it during page 7. I couldn't take anymore of that hateful bigot. But while I was reading I kept thinking "Why should there be marriage at all? What value does it have (outside of legal benefits) that a loving relationship without marriage be without?" I realize there are legal benefits to marriage, but law can be changed so that those benefits can be given to those who aren't married. Isn't marriage an outdated institution or is there something more I'm missing? (Never been married or close to it perhaps I'm just missing something)

07-06-2003, 10:50 AM	#4
livius drusus Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Selva Oscura Posts: 4,120	Hello niggle. There have been a couple of recent threads on this very topic which have covered much ground. Check out: Marriage Marriage: Will it Last?

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07-06-2003, 10:02 AM	#2
Loren Pechtel Obsessed Contributor Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Not Mayaned Posts: 96,752	I agree with you. To me, marriage is a piece of paper. To me, the primary reason to get married was to get her legal status here. The important date to me is when she moved in with me. More than once we have BOTH forgotten our anniversary.

07-06-2003, 10:34 AM	#3
seebs Contributor Join Date: May 2002 Location: Saint Paul, MN Posts: 24,524	Well, there's several different questions here, and I think you're just confusing the issue by tying them all together. 1. Piece of paper. 2. Legal benefits, generally associated with piece of paper. 3. Committed relationship. These three things are all separate. You can get the legal benefits by being "common-law married". You can have a committed relationship that isn't legally recognized. The reason for there to be any legal concept of "marriage" at all is largely a historical one - to protect the rights of the women, who were presumed unable to fend for themselves, and of any children. However, even today, we find that civil marriage helps establish some rules that may be useful. If you look at the kind of legal benefits associated with marriage, they're all focused on stuff entirely separate from romance, but very well suited to the building of small societal "units" with greater cohesion than average joes on the street have. I think that saying "marriage is a piece of paper" is rather missing the point. Marriage is the thing you did. Civil marriage is a "piece of paper", but the thing it's trying to represent is something else entirely.

07-06-2003, 11:37 AM	#5
Felicia Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: right here Posts: 16	I have been married 14 years and it is not a piece of paper to me. It is the fact that I met this man & I wanted him in my life until the day I died. Marriage is a lost institution anymore....with all the cheating...divorce rate and so on. We both wanted children and I certainly do believe that children need the influence and love of both parents. And it also adds to their security if both parents are on the premises, respecting and loving one another. and that piece of paper....well sometimes it doesn't mean a thing!!!!

07-06-2003, 06:17 PM	#8
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	To be a bit less practical, people have a natural tendency to pair bond. We aren't always perfectly true to it forever, but monogramy or serial monogamy is far more common even among the unmarried, than true promiscuity. Given that, it is appropriate to give this special connection in our lives meaning and recognition. Gay marriage is in part a recognition that many gays and lesbians share the same tendency to pair bond that straights do and similarly want to give that special relationship meaning and recognition.

07-06-2003, 09:41 PM	#10
Sakpo Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pacific Northwest (illegally occupied indigenous l Posts: 7,716	There are some useful aspects to having legally recognized marriages. Allowing spouses from other countries to immigrate would be an obvious one. I know the OP specified "apart from legal benefits," this is more just in response to the idea I have heard elsewhere that we should scrap government recognized marriage altogether. The legal aspects are quite useful. As far as what the OP asked, I don't know. I guess getting a group of people together and publically tying themselves to their mate gives people a real kick.

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