Ierrellus

snatchbalance,

Mayans valued gold. Why didn't the Dakotah Sioux?


Ierrellus

PAX

Ierrellus

fwh,

IMO, "Man" is an animal is an organism. There exists an organism and its environment, neither of which is separate from natural laws or from each other. There are no "tabla rasas" anywhere.

The mind-body distinction or the organism- environment distinction are too often expressed as dichotomies or polarities; and from that vantage point, little can be said of their interactions or levels of mutual development.

As one philospher put it, "I am; therefore I think." Isn't that meaning enough?

Ierrellus

[ June 16, 2002: Message edited by: Ierrellus ]</p>

Ierrellus

excreationist,

Please show me a meaning without a value or a value without a meaning.

Ierrellus

PAX

phaedrus

Ierrellus

So, restricted to other animals, plants and minerals, do humans place values on these things
in order to give these things meaning? And if
so, can one broadly say that esthetics is
assigned value? And is this value a necessity
for humans?

We all search for "meanings" in our lives and in that journey, based on previous experiences we place certain "values" to certain things/events. This is a dynamic process which is punctuated by "static periods" required for consolidation of the knowledge and for buidling a framework that will help fellow beings (or masses for that matter) to get a headstart in the search for meaning. (its a incurable disease i guess )

All cultures have a certain "framework" at any point in time to view the world around them. This framework is built based on the historical knowledge/perspecitves of the citizens belonging to these cultures. What is "good" or "bad" is derived from this framework and while the individuals might have different notions about good/bad or "quality", their web-of-beliefs would be largely affected/shaped by cultural/linguistic grounding.

There will come times during the evolution of a culture/civilization when the "static period" continues for ever and the leaders are complacent and no one bother to update the framework or the laws. The cycle starts and more and more individuals grow uncomfortable with the current framework. In such a situation, few individuals rise above their culture's "current" framework and put forth a new framework (as Nietzsche would put it - transvaluation of all values) and when this happens the seeds of a new civilization are sown, i.e, a new way to look at things, new meanings to be attached and new values to be attributed. Its a never ending circle?

The debate is now i guess about "universals", whether we can anyday agree to a "theory of everything" or we will continue to live in a pluralistic world, where individuals, while sharing a common picture will continue to hold onto their individual meanings/values.


JP

Mr. Sammi

One of the most overlooked events in philosophy is the human's need for energy...

Would the thing that gives energy have primary OR most meaning to the Human and through this primacy gives it value.

Makes me wonder, about fruit trees AND whether humans have a natural inclination to reach, pick and eat a juicy looking fruit.

Does the need give rise to meaning.
need = meaning.
regular need = value.

Sammi Na Boodie ()

John Page

Ierr, Sammi:

I'm getting a little lost here and I think its because of the way the word "meaning" is being used. It could be equivalent to "intending" or simply "representing" or "signifying".

So, if a "need" is something you must have, an essential want so to speak, and "value" is how much you want or prize what it is you need, both of these terms are meaningful in describing our relationship with our environment/reality.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the context again, please correct me if so.

Cheers, John

Ierrellus

phaedrus,

Astute observations! On the level of cultures defining meaning/value, it appears to me that those cultures which are nomadic have fewer objects of personal value than those which are stationary. Your idea of evaluating objects in order to provide meaning for the human evaluater is exactly what I was looking for as a discussion on meaning/value.

Also, as you noted very well, the post-modern world involves a convergence of diverse races and ethnicities. Media , displacement of people by wars, and population expansion all contribute to to a re-examination of universals of values and meanings.

Ierrellus

Ierrellus

Sammi,

"Does the need give rise to meaning?"--Sammi.

Exactly! Good question! Your opinion appreciated.

Ierrellus

Ierrellus

John!

By meaning, I am only trying to indicate how humans define what is other than themselves. Then I ask why such definitions are necessary. The old definition {Platonic} of aesthetics {geeze, I learned to spell it!} have to do with harmony, proportion, symmetry, etc. Newer definitions will have to deal with {ugh} cognitive science. What is the human need for such definitions? Do our evaluations, as Sammi states, depend on need? If so, what is that need?

Ierrellus

snatchbalance

Ierrelleus,

I think that in this instance, the larger question is; Why did the Mayas develope a stationary, agricutural society; while the Sioux remained nomadic HG's?

Stationary societies can develope surpluses that allow them to work with more durable materials. Nomads cannot do this.

Attraction to the novel in the environment, as a general human trait, however, remains universal, IMO.

SB