Freethought & Rationalism Archive

David M. Payne · 02-23-2003, 01:19 AM

This is amusing J.M&M, at least this time you didn't say that the US deserved it.

As a former marine who was in a couple of F-4 fighter squadrons in a war zone, I can tell you that it takes time to arm those planes, even when you have the ordnance right there, ready to go. As has been pointed out, there was no reason to believe that the hijacked planes were going to do what they did until the second one hit the WTC. By then it was too late, even if the planes were ready to be armed and dispatched in pursuit.

David

Me and Me · 02-23-2003, 02:33 AM

David. It was over an hour after the first plane hit the tower, that jets were even sent up.

The millitary jets wouldn't have to be armed, they are only used as for many purposes to check out planes that go off course.

This sort of action could only have been done by a state type organization, not by some loose groups of people living in caves.

Mohammed Heikal an egyptian journalist said in the Guardian on Oct 10, 2001 said

"Bin Laden does not have the capabilities for an operation of this magnitude. When I hear Bush talking as if Al-Quaida is Nazi Germany of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I laugh because I know what is there. Bin Laden has been under survellience for years: every telephone call was monitored, and al-quaida has been penetrated by U.S. intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Egyptian Intelligence, Saudi Intelligenc. The could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organization and sophistication."

Eckehardt Werthebach said on Dec 4 2001 in the Americn Free Press, also said that such an operation would have required "years of preparation" which suggests that they were "state organized actions".

Ahmid Rashid reported to Foreign Affairs on November-December 1999 spoke of one of the largest covert operations in the History of the U.S.

"With the active encouragement of the CIA and ISI (pakistani intelligence agency) who wanted to turn the afghan jihad into a global Jihad waged by all muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 muslim radicals from 40 different countries were recruited and principally trained in afghanistan from 1982 to 1992. some 100,000 muslim radicals were directly influenced by the afghan Jihad."

In Janes defense weekly on sept 14 2001, it also speaks of these training camps.

"The trainers were mainly from Pakistans ISI who learned their craft from american green berets in various U.S. training establishments. "Mass training of the afghan Mujahadeen was subsequently conducted by the Pakistan Army under the supervision of the elite special forces

On sept 4 2001 Londons Daily Telegraph reported that the General of ISI made a visit to washingtion. On Sept 10, 2001 the Pakistani daily, the news, said:

"ISI chief mahumouds week-long presence in Washingtion has triggered speculation about the agenda of these mysterious meetings at the pentagon and Nation Security Coucil. Officially, State department sources say that he is on a routine visit in return for the CIA directors visit to Islamabad. Official souces confirm that he met with Tenet (director of the CIA) this week."

Then on Oct 8 2001 Mahumoud was dismissed as head of the ISI, The times of India on Oct 8, 2001 says:

"Top sources say that the general lost his job becuase of the evidence that India produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the World Trade center. The U.S. authorities sought his removal after confirming that 100,000 dollars were wired to hi jacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan."

Mohammed Atta was one of the hijackers on the first plane to hit the towers.

Pakistan did it, and the U.S. knew all about it, and wanted to use this as an excuse to invade and build a pipeline through afghanistan. Plans to invade afghanistan were already drawn up and preparation toops were already under way before sept 11.

Zar · 02-23-2003, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
This is amusing J.M&M, at least this time you didn't say that the US deserved it.

You know what? I would never say the "U.S." deserved any of this, if you mean ordinary citizens. On the other hand, if you're talking about the criminally corrupt U.S. "government" (read: elite playpen), then I'm not so sure I could rise in its defense.

Soul Invictus · 02-23-2003, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cjack
I think perhaps that hindsight may be clouding your vision on this one.

As another poster said, it is important to keep in mind the unprecedented nature of what happened that morning, and approach it from that perspective.

Between 7:45 and 8:10 am, all the information that flight controllers had was that 4 planes had deviated from their flight plans for some reason. It is easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight and say that they should have known it was a multiple hijacking, but at the time, that would have been a pretty far-fetched scenario. Consider that prior to 9/11/2001, there had never been a multiple hijacking. For that matter, when was the last time a plane had been hijacked in the US?

When the first plane hit the WTC, it was still not clear what was happening. At that point, no one knew what had hit the WTC. Keep in mind that the FAA at this point just has 4 missing planes (with NO information as to their location or status) and a report of some disaster in New York.

Only when the second plane hit did it dawn on anyone that this might be some sort of attack.

Also, much is made of the fact that Dubya kept reading to the kids after Card whispered in his ear what happened. This is one of the cornerstones of the various conspiracy theories regarding 9/11.

However, we don't know what Card told him!

Did he say "Mr. President, terrorists have hijacked planes and are crashing them into buildings," or "Mr. President, there is a situation in New York...we don't have all the details, but it looks serious...we'll keep you informed."

As much as I dislike Bush, I can't imagine that he would keep reading to the kiddies if it had been the former.

We got caught with our pants down by the most audacious and well-executed terrorist attack in history. Why is that so hard to accept?

Looking back, it's logical that what you say if fair for what could have happened, w/o an elaborate conspiracy nonetheless. In my opinion I would find it impractical that no one had no clue, given our nations's supposed controls...Although I can agree that it's not out of the question that there didn't need to be an elaborate conspiracy, I would find it difficult to accept that no one knew no thing (such as an estimated time of an attempt at least). It reeks of Pearl Harbor all over again. I can't help but wonder what the stock markets' put/call options were like right before the attacks, though.

Me and Me · 02-23-2003, 06:12 PM

Soul Invictus

Alot of PUT stock options were purchased from a german bank, they were stocks in the airlines that were used by the Hijackers.

I will try to find that link to that story.

David M. Payne · 02-24-2003, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David M. Payne
This is amusing J.M&M, at least this time you didn't say that the US deserved it.

As a former marine who was in a couple of F-4 fighter squadrons in a war zone, I can tell you that it takes time to arm those planes, even when you have the ordnance right there, ready to go. As has been pointed out, there was no reason to believe that the hijacked planes were going to do what they did until the second one hit the WTC. By then it was too late, even if the planes were ready to be armed and dispatched in pursuit.

David

J.M&M, I was watching the news when the second plane hit, so I saw it live on TV. They were talking about how it was some kind of a tragic accident right up until the second tower was hit, then it was clear to everybody what was going on. By then it was too late and what I said above still stands. You can run all the conspiracy theories you want, but those guys used box cutters to take over the planes, and no one knew what they were going to do until they did it. It was a good plan pulled off by religious fanatics who hate the US. What I find amazing here is you guys on the left almost defending people who would kill YOU as soon as they got the chance. How blind can you be?

Quote:

Originally posted by Zar
You know what? I would never say the "U.S." deserved any of this, if you mean ordinary citizens. On the other hand, if you're talking about the criminally corrupt U.S. "government" (read: elite playpen), then I'm not so sure I could rise in its defense.

Zar, was it Bush and his cronies in the towers, or was it just a bunch of innocent people who got murdered for the glory of Allah in bin Laden's Jihad?

David

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

Zar · 02-24-2003, 01:58 AM

David M. Payne,

What I mean is, when you look at things in terms of action/reaction, I think there is a lot more to be said for the games the U.S. gov't and other governments have played in the world, and some reactions seem like a product of those shennanigans. Like a lot of people have said, Sept. 11 was tragic for the victims and their families, and a real shock for ordinary Americans, but it was not totally surprising. I used to scoff at that, but have since learned there is much to what they say.

I don't think it is right to say the people in those towers deserved what they got, to say the least. It was horrible, what happened to them. But I'm not just angry at the perpetrators, I'm angry at the U.S. elites who play with fire and expect American soldiers and citizens to pay the price for it, and then whine out loud and demand our unflinching gratitude on top of it.

David M. Payne · 02-24-2003, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zar
David M. Payne,

What I mean is, when you look at things in terms of action/reaction, I think there is a lot more to be said for the games the U.S. gov't and other governments have played in the world, and some reactions seem like a product of those shennanigans. Like a lot of people have said, Sept. 11 was tragic for the victims and their families, and a real shock for ordinary Americans, but it was not totally surprising. I used to scoff at that, but have since learned there is much to what they say.

I don't think it is right to say the people in those towers deserved what they got, to say the least. It was horrible, what happened to them. But I'm not just angry at the perpetrators, I'm angry at the U.S. elites who play with fire and expect American soldiers and citizens to pay the price for it, and then whine out loud and demand our unflinching gratitude on top of it.

Zar, I agree with you here, and this is a big part of why I write what I do here. It's just frustrating to get lumped in with the Bush crowd because I have some conservative views, but not the same kind of conservative views as this administration has. Think of it more along the lines of conserving what is useful and necessary, not keeping the rich rich and fuck the rest of us. I am conservative in the old sense of the word, in my outlook I see the need to eliminate as much poverty as possible, I just think we should use that capitalist tool, the corporation to do it. You guys talk about your belief in democracy, but if you use the stock ownership of the means of production by the workers, how much more democratic can you get? You just don't think it can be done, I see it happening around us now, but there is no organization to the effort, no larger plan to follow to spread the wealth. All the socialized systems put another class in control of the means of production, the government. Power is centralized and then it corrupts, see Russia, China etc. de-centralize the power, (And make no mistake, economic power is the real power) and end the corruption, or at least mute it so it doesn�t have such bad effects on humanity.
I have to go, it's late and I have another windmill to tilt at.

David

"God, Marx, and religion, the oldest scam(s) in history, and they still suck them in today. So free your mind, and your body will follow!

GaryP · 02-24-2003, 03:34 AM

An exhaustive, independent investigation by well respected people may help answer some of these questions.

Personally, I can't believe that citizens have not demanded this.

Every time a plane goes down, there is an investiagation. Yet in the most horrible crime ever perpetrated on American soil NOTHING has been done to discover how this could have ocurred.

Me and Me · 02-24-2003, 06:37 AM

It is leap of faith to believe that all this happened and it was just a set of coincidences. I would believe in Capitalism before I believe that. LOL

You guys paint a picture of an unwatched and unmoderated flight paths. If you guys want us to believe this, than explain what air traffic controllers are and what are they supposed to do, and what type of plane tracking equipment do they have?

David, did you read my last post? The fact that the head of Pakistans Secret intelligence services was pressured to step down from the U.S. after it was confirmed that he wired money to one of the hi-jackers when he was visiting the U.S. (to see the head of the CIA)? To overlook this is to support them.

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02-23-2003, 01:19 AM	#71
David M. Payne Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The land of chain smoking, bible thumping, holy ro Posts: 1,248	This is amusing J.M&M, at least this time you didn't say that the US deserved it. As a former marine who was in a couple of F-4 fighter squadrons in a war zone, I can tell you that it takes time to arm those planes, even when you have the ordnance right there, ready to go. As has been pointed out, there was no reason to believe that the hijacked planes were going to do what they did until the second one hit the WTC. By then it was too late, even if the planes were ready to be armed and dispatched in pursuit. David

02-23-2003, 02:33 AM	#72
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	David. It was over an hour after the first plane hit the tower, that jets were even sent up. The millitary jets wouldn't have to be armed, they are only used as for many purposes to check out planes that go off course. This sort of action could only have been done by a state type organization, not by some loose groups of people living in caves. Mohammed Heikal an egyptian journalist said in the Guardian on Oct 10, 2001 said "Bin Laden does not have the capabilities for an operation of this magnitude. When I hear Bush talking as if Al-Quaida is Nazi Germany of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, I laugh because I know what is there. Bin Laden has been under survellience for years: every telephone call was monitored, and al-quaida has been penetrated by U.S. intelligence, Pakistani intelligence, Egyptian Intelligence, Saudi Intelligenc. The could not have kept secret an operation that required such a degree of organization and sophistication." Eckehardt Werthebach said on Dec 4 2001 in the Americn Free Press, also said that such an operation would have required "years of preparation" which suggests that they were "state organized actions". Ahmid Rashid reported to Foreign Affairs on November-December 1999 spoke of one of the largest covert operations in the History of the U.S. "With the active encouragement of the CIA and ISI (pakistani intelligence agency) who wanted to turn the afghan jihad into a global Jihad waged by all muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 muslim radicals from 40 different countries were recruited and principally trained in afghanistan from 1982 to 1992. some 100,000 muslim radicals were directly influenced by the afghan Jihad." In Janes defense weekly on sept 14 2001, it also speaks of these training camps. "The trainers were mainly from Pakistans ISI who learned their craft from american green berets in various U.S. training establishments. "Mass training of the afghan Mujahadeen was subsequently conducted by the Pakistan Army under the supervision of the elite special forces On sept 4 2001 Londons Daily Telegraph reported that the General of ISI made a visit to washingtion. On Sept 10, 2001 the Pakistani daily, the news, said: "ISI chief mahumouds week-long presence in Washingtion has triggered speculation about the agenda of these mysterious meetings at the pentagon and Nation Security Coucil. Officially, State department sources say that he is on a routine visit in return for the CIA directors visit to Islamabad. Official souces confirm that he met with Tenet (director of the CIA) this week." Then on Oct 8 2001 Mahumoud was dismissed as head of the ISI, The times of India on Oct 8, 2001 says: "Top sources say that the general lost his job becuase of the evidence that India produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the World Trade center. The U.S. authorities sought his removal after confirming that 100,000 dollars were wired to hi jacker Mohammed Atta from Pakistan." Mohammed Atta was one of the hijackers on the first plane to hit the towers. Pakistan did it, and the U.S. knew all about it, and wanted to use this as an excuse to invade and build a pipeline through afghanistan. Plans to invade afghanistan were already drawn up and preparation toops were already under way before sept 11.

02-23-2003, 06:12 PM	#75
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	Soul Invictus Alot of PUT stock options were purchased from a german bank, they were stocks in the airlines that were used by the Hijackers. I will try to find that link to that story.

02-24-2003, 01:58 AM	#77
Zar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 3,477	David M. Payne, What I mean is, when you look at things in terms of action/reaction, I think there is a lot more to be said for the games the U.S. gov't and other governments have played in the world, and some reactions seem like a product of those shennanigans. Like a lot of people have said, Sept. 11 was tragic for the victims and their families, and a real shock for ordinary Americans, but it was not totally surprising. I used to scoff at that, but have since learned there is much to what they say. I don't think it is right to say the people in those towers deserved what they got, to say the least. It was horrible, what happened to them. But I'm not just angry at the perpetrators, I'm angry at the U.S. elites who play with fire and expect American soldiers and citizens to pay the price for it, and then whine out loud and demand our unflinching gratitude on top of it.

02-24-2003, 03:34 AM	#79
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	An exhaustive, independent investigation by well respected people may help answer some of these questions. Personally, I can't believe that citizens have not demanded this. Every time a plane goes down, there is an investiagation. Yet in the most horrible crime ever perpetrated on American soil NOTHING has been done to discover how this could have ocurred.

02-24-2003, 06:37 AM	#80
Me and Me Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: California Posts: 600	It is leap of faith to believe that all this happened and it was just a set of coincidences. I would believe in Capitalism before I believe that. LOL You guys paint a picture of an unwatched and unmoderated flight paths. If you guys want us to believe this, than explain what air traffic controllers are and what are they supposed to do, and what type of plane tracking equipment do they have? David, did you read my last post? The fact that the head of Pakistans Secret intelligence services was pressured to step down from the U.S. after it was confirmed that he wired money to one of the hi-jackers when he was visiting the U.S. (to see the head of the CIA)? To overlook this is to support them.

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