Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Tom Sawyer · 03-04-2003, 08:33 AM

Income tax is not going to change anytime soon. The reason for that is because although everyone complains about paying too much in taxes, most people really don't know how much tax they are paying. This is because those funds are automatically deducted from their paychecks and they don't really notice anything except what comes into their bank accounts.

In order for some kind of reform to come into the income tax system, the first thing that has to be done is to end this. If people are forced to write a cheque every month to the government where they explicitly see how much money they are sending them, then they will start to demand real accountability for that money and ask why they have to pay so much. This will lead to both a lowering of rates and more efficiency on the part of the government. Until that happens, it's just free money for the government and inefficiency, waste and individuals' overpaying for those income taxes will continue.

Another problem is that although the government is the one who benefits from receiving these taxes, it is up to companies to figure out how much to send the government and set up all the deductions for their employees. So the government gets all the money, but businesses are the ones who pay for the trouble of figuring out how to get it to them. This is a strain on business profits that gives them no benefit at all and is a function that should be handled by the government which receives the money.

I think that some form of income tax is a good thing. The government does a lot more than it used to and needs to pay for those things. Defence spending, social programs, infrastructure maintenence and improvements, etc all cost money and it needs to get that from the people who benefit from them, namely the citizens of the country. However, I believe that we pay too much and that money is used inefficiently by the governement. For a change to happen, though, the average person needs to be more aware of how much he's putting into the system for him to make demanding a change a priority.

theyeti · 03-04-2003, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RoddyM
Amen-Moses, taxation has been charged by every regime or authority that could get away with it. It's in the bible for chrissake.

Well, obviously. Given that the minimal responsibility of any government is to protect property rights (assuming your form of government recognizes property), enforce criminal law, and defend against invaders, it has little choice but to enact taxes. Courts, military, police, magistrates, etc. cost money and stuff.

theyeti

Ultron · 03-04-2003, 09:03 AM

You know, all of us disagree on just about practically everything. But we all hate taxes. Just a thought.

RoddyM · 03-04-2003, 09:16 AM

OK, so what's going on? Are we paying income tax purely out of a sense of tradition or what? Is it a protection racket or what?

In Australia the thugs are getting it both ways. They tax us when we earn and when we spend. They tax us double when we spend not using cash. Bank "fees" can cost a person a half a days wages a month.

Our nerdy Prime Minister said that he would never implement a goods and sevices tax but he did. He said that he would never stop people visiting their local doctor free of charge (apart from what was deducted from whatever weekly wages pro-rata) but he is now going to charge.

They get it both ways, and people are so stupid or too stupid to say that it's bullshit, so it goes on.

Morat · 03-04-2003, 12:49 PM

Ultron: The problem is, much as we hate taxes, we hate not having police, military, firefighters, roads, and all the other things the government provides more.

Kinross · 03-04-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Morat
Ultron: The problem is, much as we hate taxes, we hate not having police, military, firefighters, roads, and all the other things the government provides more.

All of those except for the miltary are provided by your local govenment, not the federal income tax.

NialScorva · 03-04-2003, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamSmith
All of those except for the miltary are provided by your local govenment, not the federal income tax.

Roads are federally subsidized, as is education.

gcameron · 03-04-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ultron
You know, all of us disagree on just about practically everything. But we all hate taxes. Just a thought.

I hate going to the dentist, but that doesn't mean I disapprove of dentistry...

Feather · 03-04-2003, 06:19 PM

Y'know, I had a substantial amount in unreported income that I have to pay taxes on this year, in addition to the reported income. I may also owe a "tax penalty" (whatever the hell that is--the forms seem to imply in one part that I am exempt, and in another that I am not, so I'm crossing my fingers and letting the IRS do it--which means I'm almost certain to owe the penalty).

My total tax bill (not including the possible penalty, cuz I have no clue how much it will be) is approximately 13% of my total income (including all sources).

I keep hearing how, once I'd have to figure my taxes and write a check to cover them, how much I would be appalled at the sheer magnitude of the amount on the check.

Well I'm not upset. I don't hate paying taxes.

See, I live in a country that spends quite a lot of money on the military and in foreign "aid." This helps me live a higher standard of life, because I don't have to worry about being invaded by every tin pot dictator with a bug up his butt.

I live in a country that spends quite a lot to pay poor people their entire incomes, or to supplement their substandard incomes, so that they can afford basic necessities (I lived in a single parent home, so I know what poverty is--we were homeless for some seven months at one point).

It is easy to argue that taxes are "protection money." I can certainly say that's my view. I pay the government, and the government protects me from foreign enemies (military/foreign "aid") and it protects me from domestic enemies (e.g. welfare for poor people would-be rioters and such like).

So, no, I don't mind paying taxes. I take issue with the terrible inefficiency that tax monies are handled, though. And I think the income tax is a good idea. So there.

8of9 · 03-04-2003, 07:55 PM

Which Americans give a third of their income (see original post for Ron Paul quote) to the Federal government? Surely not the majority, even if you count Social Security and Medicare. Well, unless you include "employment tax" which companies pay for their employees, and which isn't income tax, so wouldn't be covered here ...

I've never been fond of the income tax idea, and I would certainly pay more taxes under most alternate systems. I am still in favor of major reform -- towards taxing consumption, rather than the very fruits of our labor. The current system is certainly too complex and basically rewards the loophole-worms.

The inertia is incredible, though -- significant reform probably won't happen in our lifetimes.

Just found some neat tax stats (1999), if there are any other curious number-crunchers here.

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03-04-2003, 08:33 AM	#11
Tom Sawyer Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Toronto, eh Posts: 42,293	Income tax is not going to change anytime soon. The reason for that is because although everyone complains about paying too much in taxes, most people really don't know how much tax they are paying. This is because those funds are automatically deducted from their paychecks and they don't really notice anything except what comes into their bank accounts. In order for some kind of reform to come into the income tax system, the first thing that has to be done is to end this. If people are forced to write a cheque every month to the government where they explicitly see how much money they are sending them, then they will start to demand real accountability for that money and ask why they have to pay so much. This will lead to both a lowering of rates and more efficiency on the part of the government. Until that happens, it's just free money for the government and inefficiency, waste and individuals' overpaying for those income taxes will continue. Another problem is that although the government is the one who benefits from receiving these taxes, it is up to companies to figure out how much to send the government and set up all the deductions for their employees. So the government gets all the money, but businesses are the ones who pay for the trouble of figuring out how to get it to them. This is a strain on business profits that gives them no benefit at all and is a function that should be handled by the government which receives the money. I think that some form of income tax is a good thing. The government does a lot more than it used to and needs to pay for those things. Defence spending, social programs, infrastructure maintenence and improvements, etc all cost money and it needs to get that from the people who benefit from them, namely the citizens of the country. However, I believe that we pay too much and that money is used inefficiently by the governement. For a change to happen, though, the average person needs to be more aware of how much he's putting into the system for him to make demanding a change a priority.

03-04-2003, 09:03 AM	#13
Ultron Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: here Posts: 738	You know, all of us disagree on just about practically everything. But we all hate taxes. Just a thought.

03-04-2003, 09:16 AM	#14
RoddyM Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 183	OK, so what's going on? Are we paying income tax purely out of a sense of tradition or what? Is it a protection racket or what? In Australia the thugs are getting it both ways. They tax us when we earn and when we spend. They tax us double when we spend not using cash. Bank "fees" can cost a person a half a days wages a month. Our nerdy Prime Minister said that he would never implement a goods and sevices tax but he did. He said that he would never stop people visiting their local doctor free of charge (apart from what was deducted from whatever weekly wages pro-rata) but he is now going to charge. They get it both ways, and people are so stupid or too stupid to say that it's bullshit, so it goes on.

03-04-2003, 12:49 PM	#15
Morat Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 932	Ultron: The problem is, much as we hate taxes, we hate not having police, military, firefighters, roads, and all the other things the government provides more.

03-04-2003, 06:19 PM	#19
Feather Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Gainesville, FL Posts: 1,827	Y'know, I had a substantial amount in unreported income that I have to pay taxes on this year, in addition to the reported income. I may also owe a "tax penalty" (whatever the hell that is--the forms seem to imply in one part that I am exempt, and in another that I am not, so I'm crossing my fingers and letting the IRS do it--which means I'm almost certain to owe the penalty). My total tax bill (not including the possible penalty, cuz I have no clue how much it will be) is approximately 13% of my total income (including all sources). I keep hearing how, once I'd have to figure my taxes and write a check to cover them, how much I would be appalled at the sheer magnitude of the amount on the check. Well I'm not upset. I don't hate paying taxes. See, I live in a country that spends quite a lot of money on the military and in foreign "aid." This helps me live a higher standard of life, because I don't have to worry about being invaded by every tin pot dictator with a bug up his butt. I live in a country that spends quite a lot to pay poor people their entire incomes, or to supplement their substandard incomes, so that they can afford basic necessities (I lived in a single parent home, so I know what poverty is--we were homeless for some seven months at one point). It is easy to argue that taxes are "protection money." I can certainly say that's my view. I pay the government, and the government protects me from foreign enemies (military/foreign "aid") and it protects me from domestic enemies (e.g. welfare for poor people would-be rioters and such like). So, no, I don't mind paying taxes. I take issue with the terrible inefficiency that tax monies are handled, though. And I think the income tax is a good idea. So there.

03-04-2003, 07:55 PM	#20
8of9 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Merryland Posts: 254	Which Americans give a third of their income (see original post for Ron Paul quote) to the Federal government? Surely not the majority, even if you count Social Security and Medicare. Well, unless you include "employment tax" which companies pay for their employees, and which isn't income tax, so wouldn't be covered here ... I've never been fond of the income tax idea, and I would certainly pay more taxes under most alternate systems. I am still in favor of major reform -- towards taxing consumption, rather than the very fruits of our labor. The current system is certainly too complex and basically rewards the loophole-worms. The inertia is incredible, though -- significant reform probably won't happen in our lifetimes. Just found some neat tax stats (1999), if there are any other curious number-crunchers here.

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