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Old 07-16-2002, 02:00 PM   #31
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luvluv...my aunt believes Elvis is alive, I don't believe Elvis is alive...doesn't my position represent the truth to the best of our knowledge?
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:06 PM   #32
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Quote:
peteyh:
...Christianity has done a lot more good than harm in our society.
Even granting this to be true, what good has Christianity done that could not have been done without it?

I've not doubt that Christians can be good people and do good things. But wouldn't those people be good people if they were not Christian?
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>So, a continuous lie that comforts is all right, instead of telling the truth and perhaps allowing them to be human beings instead of easily manipulated sheep? </strong>
I believe in personal accountability and therefore am accountable to no man for my actions, so who manipulates me?

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>Are you suggesting that we lie to them too? That we present an alternative lie and treat them as horrifically as their own cult leaders do?</strong>
My pastor is the kindest most loving, and most gentle man I know.

Quote:
MORE: Belief in God brings order to their universe and a purpose to their lives.
Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>No it doesn't, because there is no order or purpose to their lives, ultimately, so it's all a lie. Can you imagine living a lie for your entire existence?</strong>
I say my belief in God does bring order to my universe and a purpose to my life. *Even* if it was a lie, I would not consider my life wasted because I am happy.I've got a wife who loves me unconditionally, a baby girl who brings me indescribable joy, and all of this has been enhanced and brought to a greater sense of fulfillment in the light of my understanding of Scriptural truths.If, as you say, there is ultimately no order and purpose to life, how does it matter what I believe in?

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>I'd sooner slit my own throat.</strong>



Quote:
MORE: It gives them hope that there is something better out there and the things that they do actually have a meaning in the larger scheme of things.
Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>Well, there is something better out there. It's called the truth.</strong>
Assuming the truth is something other than what I believe, how does that make it better?


Quote:
More:And the things they do actually do have a meaning in the larger scheme of things, because they're a part of the scheme of things, so anything anybody ever does is has meaning to everyone else involved?
Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>Who are the idiots who think that their lives have no meaning without cult indoctrination?</strong>
If there is no God then meaning can only be derived from subjective experience.You cannot prove anything I believe is objectively better or worse than anything you believe.You can only argue that for you, it is subjectively better or worse.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>There is literally no end to the possible meaning any person's life can have as a free thinker</strong>
Name one.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>there is only one meaning a person's life can have as a cult member</strong>
What would that be?


Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>...and it's not pretty.</strong>
Not pretty to you or not pretty to me?I quite fancy the meaning my life has.

Quote:
MORE: When tragedy happens, it was for a reason;
Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:
<strong>Godidit? No he didn't. Remember, we have free will and do everything to ourselves. God is love and therefore does nothing at all bad ever.</strong>
I agree that God never does anything bad whatsoever. Look at that we're finding common ground here

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>It was their fault for not believing enough that made their God of love angry and that's why tragedy struck.</strong>
God does punish, He also tests.Life is a test, no matter what you believe.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>That or the devil! Ooooh, big bad scary devil didit! Satan who will tear your flesh form off your bones in the firy pits of hell!</strong>
*yawn* I do not live my life in fear of the devil.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
Yeah, why would anyone have any incentive to know the truth when they can have that kind of comfort?</strong>
Ah, so you project your assumptions of what Christians must believe and feel about their God.

My life is living proof that the God I worship is one of great comfort.Sorry to burst your bubble.

Quote:
MORE: when a loved one dies, they've gone to a better place and they will be seen again
Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
Thereby insuring, arguably, that poeple have an ever harder time moving on with their lives, or worse, destroying their own lives in order to "join them" in heaven.</strong>
When my friend died, I grieved heavily for a few weeks.I was comforted (and still am) in the knowledge that he is with the Lord now.Where do you see a difficulty in moving on with my life?

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
Besides, nobody knows--theist or atheist--what happens after death</strong>
Do you mean to say that ultimately everything you believe requires faith?

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>so only a strict materialist would be the voice of annihilation, itself a perfect explanation and fine motivator to get on with your life before you are in turn annihilated, yes?</strong>
My life is always in motion, I am one proactive individual, I guess I have just managed to escape every one of your stereotypes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
when you tell them that God exists in order for you to worship and believe in him or he'll throw you into an eternal lake of fire, you're telling them that God is a cruel, vengeful and unjust evil to be feared at the same time he is purely just and to be loved and worshipped, thereby scaring the hell into them for their entire lives.</strong>
My life is not consumed by the fear of some cruel vengeful God and eternal damnation, rather it is filled with the joy of knowing my creator on a personal basis, and seeking His will for my life.

Doh! Another stereotype escaped.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
Are you saying that the only way to bring meaning into your life is if you are told nothing but lies?</strong>
Assuming God does not exist and meaning is defined as anything other than cause and effect, most certainly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
So you'd better damn well cherish every single moment then hadn't you and stop just coasting through life complacent and docile like some goddamned sheep because this life, for you know, is all you get so get to it!</strong>
Let's see here, how many more stereotypes shall I escape:

a)I do cherish every moment, even this one.

b)I am a goal oriented person, therefore I achieve.The last thing I am is complacent or docile.

Quote:
Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi:<strong>
THEY HAVE NOTHING TO BEGIN WITH BECAUSE THEY'VE WASTED THEIR LIVES BELIEVING IN LIES!</strong>
*yawn* Please, quantify the value of the meaning of your life, then compare it to mine.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Odemus ]</p>
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:08 PM   #34
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Most Atheists are young, White, well educated and affluent. They don't need a supernatural source to offer them comfort. Other people do.
So there is nothing to offer by way of ideology alone because ideology alone is not what sustains them.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:10 PM   #35
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While it's true that atheism as such offers very little (since it is merely a lack of a belief), its advantage is that it opens up a realm of possible worldviews closed to theists.

Atheism may not by itself offer one a purpose in life, but worldviews that do not contain gods may recommend methods for creating a purpose in life that one will find fulfilling.

Atheism allows a greater range of rationality that may help people navigate life more successfully, just as a map that is accurate is more useful than one which is misleading. Falsehoods may seem innocent and benign, but they can create unexpected problems at any time.

As for dealing with the death of loved ones, I faced the death of my mother as an atheist, and while I was certainly saddened by her death, I found that dealing with the reality of it honestly and directly offered me dignity and a smooth emotional recovery.

Does atheism have benefits? Sure! If one develops a personal philosophy of life that is positive. I think atheism opens up many wondrous possibilities.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Eudaimonist ]</p>
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:20 PM   #36
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Quote:
Christianity has done a lot more good than harm in our society.
The dark ages comes to mind. I can`t help but wonder how much further science and technology would be if we didn`t waste all that time with our thumbs up our ass for Jesus.

We wasted hundreds of years going backwards due to superstitions and utter bullshit when we could have been working on my flying car and medical techniques that would allow me to live long enough to really enjoy my flying car!
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:25 PM   #37
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Lady Shea

The point is, however unlikely it may seem to us, Elvis may very well be alive. It is not at all outside of the realm of possibility. What public opinion deems to be improbable has no bearing on what actually is. Atheism has no truth to offer, it only can add it's opinion of what is true to a caucophony of other opinions which may all ultimately be wrong.

I think GeoTheo makes an excellent point that is probably underestimated by a lot of people on here: to a certain extent, atheism is a faith of the privilidged.

People who don't know where their next meal is coming from cannot afford to abandon hope. I'm not poor but I did come from an area of poor families (most of my friends growing up lived in housing projects). I know something of the life that is lead by the poor and the destitute. I know lots of mothers who feel helpless to protect their children from the lure of the streets. Your logic, to be frank, can't do a single thing for them. It would destroy the basis which makes their lives livable.

I'm not saying this because I believe that it offers firm grounds on which to believe (I believe in God because I believe His existence to be an actual fact), but I offer this as an explanation as to why the majority of people on this planet whose lives are unpredictable and often times degrading and burdensome will never turn in their hope for logic. People trying to raise 4 kids on a single minimum wage income in the heart of, say, Bed-stuy or Watts are always going to need hope more than logic.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:34 PM   #38
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I think being poor would make you NOT believe in a loving deity. Hell, I'd be asking myself all the time "Why aren't I blessed like those people" or "Why is God punishing me" or "Why do my children deserve hunger, I have faith".

I think it's a cop out to bring socioeconomic factors into this debate, that's a low blow appeal to emotion IMO.

And yes, it is possible that Elvis is alive, but there is no reason to believe he is since he isn't interacting with the rest of us. I can't see Elvis, I can't hear him sing live, I can't call him up on the phone, I can't find anyone who knows his address...so logic dictates that the man is no longer among the living.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:44 PM   #39
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How does religion help poor people? It gives them false hope by feeding them a lie: just pray to God and everything will be alright. If anything, religion may even maintain poverty by telling people that this life is not important anyway, it’s the afterlife that really counts. What better way to keep poor people happy with their poverty? At least with atheism you have to face the problem head on.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:56 PM   #40
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Luvluv,

Quote:
Originally posted by Luvluv:

If atheism is simply a lack of beliefs, how can it offer any truth?
For once, Luvluv, you have asked a relevant question that involves no strawmen, and you've also brought up a point that I heartily agree with.

Sincerely,

Goliath
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