Freethought & Rationalism Archive

K · 09-15-2002, 07:15 AM

Ed:

Do you really believe that morality popped into existence 2000 years ago? Christianity certainly didn't existe before then. Or do you believe that the Isrealites were the only people with morality before that time? If we have no reason to be moral without Christianity, it would seem that humankind has done well being moral without the need to be moral for hundreds of thousands of years.

Starboy · 09-16-2002, 08:26 AM

Ed, you must not think atheists are irrational otherwise why would you trying to convince them of anything using argument? That would imply that you think that christian morals are irrational. Wow, we agree! That would mean that your original statement is wrong. You LOOSE Ed.

Starboy

Ed · 09-16-2002, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NOGO:


Right! This means that if we do as Yahweh does we are sure to me morally right.

Let's take an example.

1 Samuel 15:2-3
"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"

The attack referred to is in Ex17:8-16
I quote here the last verse.
"The LORD has sworn; the LORD will have war against Amalek from generation to generation."

The key words here are
"I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt".

The massacre described in 1 Samuel 15 is therefore a punishment for the attack which took place 400 years earlier.

Ed, since you like to talk about morality all the time, I will say this.

The idea that it was fair game to kill children for something that their ancesters did was the MORALITY of the time. It is called a feud. Yahweh sees no problem with this.

Since Yahweh does it then it must be morally right to kill children to avenge something their ancestors did.

No, only God as omniscient judge of the universe can make such a call. We are not qualified.

Ed · 09-16-2002, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starboy:

Originally posted by Ed:

Ummm... you need to read the posts you repond to more carefully. I never said that you or any atheist were immoral, what I said was atheists have no rational basis for being moral especially if their morality resembles Christian morality.

sb: So are you saying that because I am an atheist I am incapable of reason? Or are you saying that Christian morals are irrational?

Starboy

No, you are capable of reason because you were created by a reasoning God. But when it comes to morality we like to make our own decisions so we rationalize our actions rather than reason our actions and with atheists they dont want to believe that they are accountable to anyone. What I am saying is that for an atheist to live by Christian morals is irrational.

NOGO · 09-17-2002, 05:52 AM

Quote:

Ed
No, only God as omniscient judge of the universe can make such a call. We are not qualified.

Which call are you talking about?

I am talking about a massacre which has been ordered for a stated reason.

Your one liner implies that there are other reasons that only an omniscient God would know.

But you are speculating on the reasons for this masacre. You do not need to speculate because the Bible tells us exactly what the reason is.

So if God can massacre people for something that happened 400 years before explain why we are not allowed to do the same.

Explain why this is moral for God and not for us.

If massacring people for something that they did not do is immoral then it is immoral for everybody including God. It is the act which is immoral not the person doing it.

So Ed answer this,

Is massacring people for something that happened 400 years before moral or immoral?

Starboy · 09-17-2002, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ed:


No, you are capable of reason because you were created by a reasoning God. But when it comes to morality we like to make our own decisions so we rationalize our actions rather than reason our actions and with atheists they dont want to believe that they are accountable to anyone. What I am saying is that for an atheist to live by Christian morals is irrational.

Ed, are you making a distinction between morals arrived at rationally and morals that are "rational"? If so can you explain what the distinction is? You are not doing very well in explaining your morals. To me it looks like you think that "rational" morals are "Christian" morals, and as such no morals that are not Christian would ever be rational no matter how carefully they were conceived and how well they worked to bring about peace and harmony among men. I suspect that you have never considered your own morals rationally. Ed, if you were good at being moral I would think it would be extremely easy for you to explain your morals.

Starboy

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

Starboy · 09-17-2002, 08:38 AM

<< Sorry double post>>

[ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]

Ed · 09-18-2002, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark_Chid:


Ed - this is the only sane definition of right and wrong that I know.

Right - that which moves the world closer to my personal ideal.

Wrong - that which moves the further further from my personal ideal

This is a 100% watertight definition, and no other makes the slightest sense to me. To take your morality from what OTHERS tell you is good and bad seems to me to be masochistic and quite possibly insane.[/b]

Hello Mark. Is your personal ideal better than Hitler's personal ideal? If so, why? What if the creator and designer of the universe tells you what is good and bad?

[b]

Quote:

mc: It just so happens that if someone is happy, well-adjusted and healthy then that 'ideal world' will be based on empathy and the desire to see other happy people.

We alwats share what we have to much of - if we are very happy, we spread happiness, the miserable spread misery - the religious call this 'evil', but there's no such thing, its just a value judgement, not an empirical measurable 'thing'.

Hitler was very happy for awhile when he was slaughtering jews, how is that spreading happiness?

GunnerJ · 09-18-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Hello Mark. Is your personal ideal better than Hitler's personal ideal? If so, why? What if the creator and designer of the universe tells you what is good and bad?

Christian morality according to Ed: if there's no omnipotent fairy godking threatening to torture you if you misbehave, morality is meaningless. A childish view for childish minds afraid of growing up.

NOGO · 09-19-2002, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Rimstalker
Christian morality according to Ed: if there's no omnipotent fairy godking threatening to torture you if you misbehave, morality is meaningless. A childish view for childish minds afraid of growing up.

Growing up is a lot tougher than most people think. Imagine taking responsibility for your life and actions. Doing things rather waiting for God to hand you a perfect solution. Working for a just society ... no, it can't be done ... God will give us that on a silver platter, free of charge. etc...

09-17-2002, 08:38 AM	#127
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	<< Sorry double post>> [ September 17, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

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09-15-2002, 07:15 AM	#121
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Ed: Do you really believe that morality popped into existence 2000 years ago? Christianity certainly didn't existe before then. Or do you believe that the Isrealites were the only people with morality before that time? If we have no reason to be moral without Christianity, it would seem that humankind has done well being moral without the need to be moral for hundreds of thousands of years.

09-16-2002, 08:26 AM	#122
Starboy Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee, FL Reality Adventurer Posts: 5,276	Ed, you must not think atheists are irrational otherwise why would you trying to convince them of anything using argument? That would imply that you think that christian morals are irrational. Wow, we agree! That would mean that your original statement is wrong. You LOOSE Ed. Starboy

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