Sabine Grant

Bonjour AJ113....you used the word " acting". Do you mean that the choice of actions is what you will observe?
Rational BAC did not aknowledge that his actions were irrational. He aknowledged that faith is not the product of reason as I also did. You wrote " he continued with his actions". What specific actions are you refering to?
I do not believe what I stated is a fallacy. To be a theist one has to experience faith not based on reason. Being a theist is the result of faith.
An action is the state of process of acting of doing. It is not an abstract notion. It implies results manifested thru deeds.
What deeds did BAC manifest which could lead you to believe that he is irrational?

Bumble Bee Tuna

Well, it seems you're still incapable of understanding what I mean by irrational, so I guess I really can't help you. Someone who is irrational can still sometimes make rational decisions. The fact that they sometimes choose to make irrational ones is what makes them irrational.

And for the most part, it IS a switch, IMO- and the only "rational" thing to do with the switch is to never turn it on.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna

It's far easier to decide that someone is irrational than decide they are rational. If I see an irrational decision that the person thinks is OK, I know they're irrational people. It's not like I've ever really bothered much to try to judge whether people are rational or not so it's not a common activity here. However, hypothetically, I guess I would just observe all the decisions they make and decide if those decisions were rational or not. With RBAC, I might think he was rational looking at him do some engineering task...and be wrong. It's really hard to say. Rationality is really a pervasive quality of a person- rational people tend to just exude rationality in the things they do. Don't you know any people who when you think of them you just think 'wow what a logical person'? I know a few. When someone is a rational person, it really tends to show through in their character.

I hope that answered your question. Tough to answer, because I don't much have standards for deciding if someone is rational- mainly I just standards for deciding if someone is irrational.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna

Well, there was the whole admission that his faith was irrational part. That really did the trick for me.

Though in general with theists I would figure it out by asking "Why do you believe in God?". If they believed because of a logical argument that they thought was sound, I would not call them irrational (even though in these cases I'm sure most of the time the "logical argument" theists have is just kind of an after-the-fact rationalization vs. rational reason). If they admit, however, that their faith is not based on any kind of logic then I know that they are irrational.

-B

Nowhere357

I understand you, and as I've shown, your definition is not very useful.

I've shown that holding an irrational belief is not equivalent to being generally irrational.

And you have not shown that holding an irrational religious belief is a special case.

Nowhere357

People can make decisions for intuitive reasons. This does not make them irrational in general.

Also, "reason" and "logic" aren't the same.

AJ113

No. I mean that I will listen to a person's words and/or observe the same person's actions.

Rational BAC did not aknowledge that his actions were irrational.

We are not analysing RBAC, remember?

He aknowledged that faith is not the product of reason as I also did.

He acknowledged that his faith is irrational.

You wrote " he continued with his actions".

Yes, but not in reference to RBAC

What specific actions are you refering to?

Specifically irrational ones.

Lest we get caught up in yet more semantics, please accept that when I used the word "acting" it was a euphemism for anything displayed directly by an individual. This includes talking, writing and believing, which are all actions i.e verbs. That's why I said "demonstrably acting" but you missed that bit out, didn't you? If you still have problems with it try substituting "demonstrably acting irrationally" with "demonstrating irrationality." I'll even edit my post for you if you think it will help.

I do not believe what I stated is a fallacy. To be a theist one has to experience faith not based on reason. Being a theist is the result of faith.

Perhaps you do not understand what the logical fallacy of strawman is. Strawman is a fallacy that you, Véronique, commit with alarming frequency. There is nothing wrong with your statement taken at face value, in fact I agreed with you. Nest-ce pas?

However you made out that I had said all theists were irrational when I had said nothing of the sort, (that's the straw man) and then proceeded to trash the "assertion" (blow the strawman down.)

An action is the state of process of acting of doing. It is not an abstract notion. It implies results manifested thru deeds.
What deeds did BAC manifest which could lead you to believe that he is irrational?

Yet another strawman. Show me where I stated that RBAC manifested deeds which led me to belive he is irrational. Unless, of course you will accept that "believing" is a deed.

The man admitted that his faith is irrational.

AJ113

From Cambridge Dictionaries Online:

action (DOING SOMETHING) noun [U]
the process of doing something, especially when dealing with a problem or difficulty:

Having an abstract notion would involve using the brain to think. Thinking is "doing something," especially when dealing with a problem or difficulty.

Sabine Grant

But none of what you wrote proves that he leads an irrational life. And you have dismissed his accomplishments which leads me to believe that you do not consider that deeds are a demonstration of someone's rationality. Or are deeds a demonstration of someone's rationality? I believe they are.

Sabine Grant

Irrational when it comes to their faith yes...... but what about their accomplishments? should that be dismissed? I do not believe it should be.