Bumble Bee Tuna

WEll you probably mixed them up because the Mormons call themselves "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints". A crappy name, if you ask me, but there you have it.

Geoff Hudson

I don't have the above reference to hand, but in a quick reaction, I can see one very good reason why some might reject 1 and 2 Thess. as non-Pauline, or false. There is no mention of the cross or justification. Even more worrying for these folk, are the references to the Spirit. There is one explicit reference in 2 Thess.2:13 that implies the Spirit is the means of salvation or reconciliation with God:

"(13)But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the [Lord] {Spirit?}, because from the beginning God chose you to be [saved] {reconciled?} through the [sanctifying] {purifying?} work of the SPIRIT{.}
[, and through belief in the truth.]" - where this latter phrase has clearly been added by an editor.

Geoff

Vinnie

1 Thess is Pauline.

malookiemaloo

I'm always suspicious of people who answer questions with questions! It's a good way of avoiding the point in the first place.


malookiemaloo

Javaman

You're being evasive here, malookiemaloo. CX was making a very obvious point, not avoiding it. This isn't "Jeopardy" and there aren't any hard and fast rules... I don't believe for a second that you can't 'read' the statement implied in CX's post

malookiemaloo

Yes. I know and apologise.

However, Jesus's claims do merit more than being lumped together with eg. Joseph Smith. Do you not agree?


m

Asha'man

No.

Actually, it's the reverse: Joseph Smith is clearly a real person, there is no doubt about that at all. There is plenty of documentation of his life, recorded by people who were not followers of his. I'd say his claims are worth more merit than someone who might never have existed.

malookiemaloo

Question. In 2000 years time will people still be saying that Joseph Smith was a real person?


m

Asha'man

It depends, do you think the state will ever destroy all birth certificates, death certificates, and drivers license records? Given the nature of government bureaucracy, I think those records will be preserved for at least 10,000 years.

Gregg

Quite likely, assuming enough documentation about him survives. At this point we have plenty of documentation of his existence, not just from his followers, but from contemporaries who were neutral or even hostile toward him. Also, Joseph Smith is certainly revered among Mormons, but he isn't worshipped as a god.

We do not have ANY contemporary documentation about Jesus outside what was written by his followers, with the exception of a couple of brief, controversial passages in Josephus. And if Jesus had lived ANYTHING like the life the Gospels say he did, maloo, Josephus would have had a whole heck of a lot to say about him, none of it nice.

Gregg