Dr Rick

If he is omnipotent, he does have the power to intervene, and that is relevant

This doesn't even make sense; one cannot limit the limitless. A being's omnipotence can't be limited. If it's powers are limited, it is not omnipotent.

That's right! Something that doesn't exist can't be called immoral.

This doesn't make sense, either; the works and influence of an omnipotent being could not be dependent upon the acceptance of non-omnipotent ones.

One cannot reliably predict how one would respond to an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient being because there is no basis in reality from which to draw inferences.

Rick

Sabine Grant

But Beyelzu...you will actualy eliminate a woman even as you may be attracted to her just because of her spiritual walk?... you gotta to be kidding! I am glad I did not have that thinking as I let my heart fall for my agnostic hubby! and certainly glad he let his heart fall for me!

Dr Rick

Oh yeah! You're busted; my god, what will we say to the children...*sob*

Rick

Starboy

Hi Dr Rick,

If stopping the suffering would cause humanity to not exist or to turn out like a herd of cows, then no. If stopping the suffering would have little to no effect on how mankind turned out, or resulted in what I would consider a more intelligent and capable creature, then yes I would stop the punishment of mankind for the deeds of two humans. I suspect that the adage, no pain, no gain, applies. Without suffering humanity would not be what it is today so I probably would not stop the suffering.

Starboy

Dr Rick

I can't argue with this part of your answer:

...but will quibble with this:

This assertion places limits upon omnipotence: if humanity would not be what it is without suffering and a specific being could not make it otherwise, then that being would not be omnipotent. In other words, asserting that "without suffering, humanity would not be what it is today" implies that there are no alternatives available in defiance of omnipotence

Rick

Starboy

Yes, I did consider that possibility. If I were omnipotent I would not be human. If I did not create humans I most likely would not care about the plight of humans. Just as I would not care if some pond scum died, although I suspect if I were omnipotent it would be more extreme than that.

Starboy

beyelzu

I think that an atheist can only have a succesful relationship with a xian when the xian is very secular. Otherwise the convert issue will come up. While I can accept a certain amount of pigheadedness from christian apologists like rad or bede and I do have a couple of xian friends in real life, I could not handle the blind obedience to faith that such apologists have in a person that I really cared about.

I think that the minority that you refer to is actually xians who dont apply their religion to there day to day lives, which makes them practical deists.



Kally,

If you smoke marlboro reds or camel non filter, I would follow you to the ends of the earths.

and not just becuase I love your militant atheism ,

but your wicked sense of humour aint bad either.

beyelzu

I dont look at it like that.

anyone who is on a spiritual walk has a serious inability to see reality as it is.

I would find such a person irritating in her refusal to see the obvious. I only date xians who arent particularly xian. If she attends church with any regularity than its not going to work out. If its serious and we have children, she would want to raise good little christians, and I refuse to perpetuate such idiocy and cruelty on children.

Mad Kally

dear B: I don't smoke anymore but smoke doesn't bother me at all.

Sabine,
It's just wonderful that you married an agnostic. I am a strong militant atheist. Living with someone who believes in a magical sky daddy would be intolerable. My own mother turned on me one day after she asked if I am an atheist or agnostic. I decided to be honest. She went nuts and started screaming in my face that I would burn in hell for eternity. She admitted that if I had said I was agnostic she would still think there was hope for me. She never shuts her mouth! She is the most obnoxious of xians, however there are milions of them out there (obviously)

I asked her where hell was, where heaven is, and will she go to heaven immediately when she dies or will she have to wait until judgment day. ROFL, her answer was "I don't know all the details." then she ran from the room yelling "You're not going to make me doubt my faith!" I escaped from her, why in the hell would I want to hook up with another psychotic?

Doubt? WTF? I have never had a doubt about my atheism. Fictional creatures do not exist Sabine. No matter how much you wish it were true, it isn't. Try to THINK about reality, not your fantasy world. Remember, god is the only childhood myth carried over into adulthood.

I no longer think some creepy old man in the sky is reading my mind all the time. The hell that I spent my childhood believing in is not there. My childhood and my brothers were destroyed in the name of god. Beaten and abused for JESUS! And a woman can not ursurp authority over a man. So she just stood there like the drooling psychotic that she is.

As Emma Goldman said:
"To disbelieve in the gods, is at the same time to affirm life, purpose, and beauty."

There really is a drop of reason in a pool of confusion to be found here. It's wonderful to not live in a world of fear and guilt. Living in the US is a special type of hell. That's why I'm here at the Internet Infidels discussion board.

Kally

HelenM

I think Beyelzu and Kally are very wise to avoid relationships with people who have religious beliefs. If you read SL&S you can see how this complicates relationships.

I was not a Christian when I started dating my [atheist] husband; I converted some months later. Right away lots of Christians told me that Christians don't marry atheists but I was very emotionally involved so I did anyway.

I think many people underestimate the ramifications and consequences of having different beliefs to your partner. It's one thing to say "they can believe what they like" but what happens when you both want to raise your children with your own beliefs - or lack thereof?

Sabine Grant I respect your choice as your own (and your partner's) to make but I'd never encourage anyone to consider marrying a person with significantly different beliefs.

(I also respect the choice of Amie and IL and RA and Wildernesse and anyone else who has chosen a mixed belief relationship - and I also understand that whether a relationship works has mostly to do with the particular nontheist and theist and how they deal with their differences in belief - but I still wouldn't recommend it and I think those who avoid mixed belief relationships are wise in making the decision to keep that complication out of their relationships)

take care
Helen