Ruy Lopez

from St. Robert:
If you believe that you are equipped to find the answers on your own, go for it. Jesus has given you the freedom to do so.
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Jesus didn't give me any freedom and he can't. This kind of statement doesn't go anywhere. Why not defend or promote Christianity on a philosophical level, I'll oblige you; that is if you know the difference.

I'm also curious. You know we are non-believers from our posts and nothing can convince us to see things your way. What is your purpose in proselytizing? trying to earn points? There are two born again Christians in my life that I do not want to offend even if they have been trying persistently to convert me over the last 5 years. Their answer is they found a gold mine and they want to share it with me.

St. Robert

Everything I've offered has been on a philosophical level. The bible insists that followers of Jesus be able to give an answer or reason for their faith. What's wrong with me defending my beliefs? Would you easily tolerate people making false statements about non-believers?

By the way, I dislike the term non-believer. There is no such person. We all are believers in something.

What if I said that atheists were all murders like Joseph Stalin? Would that accurately characterize atheists? Of course, not.

I assure you. I don't wish to convert you. God alone calls people to himself. I'm merely standing up against anything that would tend to misinform or mislead people about the gospel.

victorialis

In the absence of those "toughest questions" being identified --

Buddhism provides the individual with the means to develop an effective way of addressing life -- tough questions, dull spots and all. Like any discipline, what one gets out of it has a direct relationship to what one puts in. There's no passive "being saved," and no "saving" beyond the exercise of compassion. It's work.

I am not devout about much of anything, and avoid the futility of self-labeling wherever possible. I used to think both those things mattered very much. But they haven't mattered yet, and I no longer expect them to.

St. Robert

Who are you, victorialis? How do you explain your existence? Why do we suffer? Is it really desire that is to blame for suffering? Why is desire so much a part of me? Was I created to desire and suffer? Why is there so much evil and hatred in the world? Why do people purposefully fly airplanes into skyscrapers? Is there life beyond the grave? Does my life have any ultimate meaning, if this is all there is? Why do some people have so much while others have so little? If there is God, where is he and why does he allow us to kill one another? Is there anybody out there who can help fix us?

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]

[ May 31, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

Ruy Lopez

from St. Robert:
Everything I've offered has been on a philosophical level.
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There's nothing philosophical about "Jesus gave you the freedom..". That's preaching.
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By the way, I dislike the term non-believer
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Non-believer in the context means nonbeliever in Christianity.
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I'm merely standing up against anything that would tend to misinform or mislead people about the gospel.
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This I can appreciate. Your motive is laudable but the way you are doing it(proselytizing instead of reasoning) just makes Christianity even look worse than it already is. Reasoning goes like this:

---God is eternal and immutable (unchanging).
---Jesus is God.
---But Jesus suffered and died.
---Therefore, Jesus is NOT GOD.

The preceeding is solid reasoning because divine traits are permanent by definition and cannot be suspended by human story-telling like the mystery of INCARNATION. This is the reasoning that convinced me in my university days that Christianity is BS.

victorialis

St Robert, I can see that these questions engage your passionate interest. If I may say so without being rude, what I don't see is why. The fact that they've been asked incessantly by human beings has ceased to recommend these questions to me.

What would we do with the answers to these questions that we cannot do just as easily without them?

There's only one purpose to which these answers are essential: having a sense of being right.

What could be more superfluous than that?

AdamWho

St. Robert: I will give your questions a try:

I exist, through sexual activity of my parents, the term existence is vague please by more specific.
[quote]Why do we suffer? Is it really desire that is to blame for suffering? [QUOTE] That is an interesting question and the reason I started this thread, have we learned anything yet?
Because you are human and want to reduce the suffering in you life.
According to your belief system, yes God made you so you to suffer. However, the real answer is that you were born not created and humans (like all animals) want to reduce the suffering in their lives, we (with our big brains) bring it to a new level by making it psychological. This is what Buddhism addresses.
All depends how you define evil. According to your belief system God made / allowed the world to be evil, therefore God is responsible. However, the real answer is desire. People (you for instance) desire to have your suffering washed away instantly (religion, drugs, pleasure, entertainment), this desire and a lack of responsibility leads people to do crazy things.
Doesn't look like it, besides life is something that happens in physical bodies, clearly this part ends.
How does YOUR life have meaning? We are alive for such a short time, I think it would be best if we tried to build bonds of friendship and love; being human and just trying to enjoy ourselves. How we go about this: reduction of suffering by controlling excessive desire.
Luck, skill, hard work; there are lots of reasons. But acquisition is not what is important, some people are happy with little and some suffer deeply with much, suffering is the main problem. However, you may be asking a political question which I will not address.
This is called the problem of evil and theologians have been working on it since the beginning of Christianity and have failed to provided an answer, therefore it seems God wants evil and suffering.
No, you (and everybody else in the world) have to take responsibility for your suffering, you can't hand it off to God / Daddy / spouse / the state. How do you plan to reduce suffering in your life, Buddhism makes the claim that bring desire under control (even in small ways) is a start.

[ June 01, 2002: Message edited by: AdamWho ]</p>

St. Robert

Quote from Victorialis:

"What would we do with the answers to these questions that we cannot do just as easily without them?"

With reliable and truthful answers to these questions, a person would possess true hope in their life.

Quote from Victorialis:

"There's only one purpose to which these answers are essential: having a sense of being right."

The purpose of Christianity is not about being right. It's about sharing the truth. As a follower of Jesus, I actually give up the right to be right. When Jesus was executed, he didn't argue with his accusers about who he claimed to be.

"He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth." -Isaiah 53:7

[ June 09, 2002: Message edited by: St. Robert ]</p>

AdamWho

St. Robert:
It is interesting that you choose Victorialis to respond to on the issue of your questions. Why preach to Victorialis? The non-confrontational approach his(?) posts take doesn't mean that he is an easy mark. It actually means that he is a grown-up.
I honestly do not think that you want reliable and truthful answers to your question. I do believe (given the state of evidence) that you want the opposite:
You want your beliefs to be truthful and reliable ironically after you have already assumed that they are truthful and reliable. Then you go further in assuming that we have are completely oblivious to "gospel" and its “truth.”
I understand that you are just trying to help people by sharing with them you "truths".
We heard it, and reject it.

St. Robert

Could a person apply the Buddhist principles of secular mediation to perhaps increase desire and suffering, to cause pain and despair, to do evil instead of good?