Dargo

It amazes me that Christians themselves are often unable to come up with consistent explanations for problematic areas no mater how deep they dig. The plethora of denominations today is proof of the impossibility of harmonizing the Bible. Even within churches I've attended, believers will often disagree on the meaning of Bible passages. How can different people read the same sections of the same Bible, pray to the same all-knowing god for guidance, yet come up with completely contradictory interpretations?

wenbur84

In response to a previous poster who was wondering why I renounced my Christianity.. It is not because of the errancy of the Bible... Although I think this is a good reason to hold Christianity suspect I do not think it is a good enough reason to denounce it.. I do however refuse to believe in a God who would wipe out entire civilizations (Noah's Ark), damn people to hell for decisions that were probably born out of there environment (e.g. An Islam born in Iraq with small likelihood of rebelling against his/her religion), or One who would not answer my constant prayers for several years to make me happy and help the demons of depression go away. To me believing in this kind of a God is ludicrous and must be considered to be false theism. I would love to hear about what others think about this matter.

Kosh

Despite what you would like to believe, Tercel, that is not a "strange" position for a majority of Christians. Try telling that to the Baptist church (of which I used to be a member) which still revels in sending out large numbers of missionaries who believe that everyone MUST hear the word to be saved. Try telling that to many of the other denominations. If it was truly a "strange" (ie, out of the norm) idea, then you wouldn't have the huge evangelical push that most churches feel they must participate in. To claim anything else is simply an attempt to change history to meet your very liberal stance, and a way of (once again) re-making the Church to match modern advances in society in a desperate attempt to survive as the walls of eduction, science, knowledge, and common sense close in on you.

Asha'man

Actually, that is exactly the claim that they make, salvation comes only through belief in Jesus.

As a rough guess, I would say that this is the theology of half of all Christians.

Most Christians seem to make exceptions for these situations only, and none others. If you are old enough to reason for yourself, and were born after the year 100 or so, you have no excuse.

Tercel

While the position that unbaptised infants who die are condemned to hell may have been the norm in the west during the dark ages, I think you will seriously struggle to find many Christians today who accept such a position. Do you disagree?

If they believe such people can go to heaven, they cannot logically also say (though they may of course do so) that knowledge of the salvation message as contained in the 66 book Protestant Bible is necessary for salvation. Agreed?

I assert that most Christians believe that babies are not necessarily condemned to hell (they'll say something like "that's up to God, but God has revealed he is loving so we can have hope for them"), that people in the OT are not necessarily condemned to hell. (Would *anyone* assert that Abraham is going to hell for not knowing of Jesus' sacrifical death and not having read the Bible and believing it Inerrant and for not having been baptised? Or David perhaps? Would *anyone* even assert that Naaman (sp?) the Syrian who got healed from leprosy by Elijah is going to hell, despite the fact that his theology consisted of nothing more than "I'll worship the Jewish God 'cos he healed me, and I hope he forgives me when I worship the other gods too"?)
Those who truly and actually believe that knowledge of the Gospel in this life is necessary for salvation are a vast vast MINORITY. In real life, I have met two such people (so far as I am aware) and I have attended Baptist churches for the past 15 years.

I support evangelism: Christianity has lots to offer people and the world.

:banghead: Of course. :banghead:

Tercel

I'd say that's a gross overestimate. Both the two largest Christian groups (Catholic and Orthodox) teach against this. Of the 3rd large Christian group (Anglican) probably the vast majority do not believe this, given it's infamity for liberal tendencies. With the remaining protestant denominations, I would be tempted to agree with your estimate: perhaps half of adherents to them believe that something (not necessary belief: eg baptism or speaking in tongues etc) found only within Christianity is necessary for salvation. (While of course conveniently excluding in an ad hoc way the other situations mentioned as problematic to such a belief)

Get over it people: Not all Christians are Baptists! Just because the Baptists are (as I understand it) the most opinionated and loudest Christian sect in America doesn't make them anything more than a relatively new (a few hundred years old compared to two millennia of Christianity) comparatively minor, and in my experience extremely ignorant, sect of Christians.

Talulah

Just because you haven't met these people doesn't mean that they aren't out there. You have obviously been looking in the wrong place. I invite you to find out if your belief is the truth. Go to BaptistBoard.com, register and post the question "is a knowledge of the gospel neccessary for salvation?" They will laugh you into your eternity for believing such a thing isn't so.

Layman

Wow, if that is what Baptists are then most Baptists I know aren't even Baptists!

Tercel

I don't believe God did that either. The standard modern interpretation appears to be that Genesis ch 1-11 inclusive should be taken metaphorically as teaching spiritual truths about man's state of sin and God's problem with this, but not literally.

Again, I agree with you. I do not believe such people are going to hell. A God who wants everyone to be saved (and the Bible teaches that he indeed does eg 1 Tim 2:4) is indeed capable of providing the ability to be saved to everyone, not just those who have heard the "Good News". (And how is something that supposedly teaches that most of the world is damned to eternal suffering "good news"? )
That is why I agree with the teachings on Salvation of the Orthodox church and those outlined by the Anglican writer CS Lewis, and think the teachings of super-conservative fundamentalist baptists a sick joke.

Here in part I sympathise, for I have difficulty with depression also.

In part I am also inclined to think, 'Oh dear, not another atheist who's reason for unbelief is that "God didn't do what I demanded when I demanded it, therefore like a spoiled child I'm going to sulk and tell him I'm not going to believe in him anymore".'
I have yet to be convinced that we have some God-given right to make arbitrary demands of God and whine when they're not met. When the Bible talks of servants, it talks of us being God's ones... not the other way around. Christians are called to bring Christ's love to the world as servants of God:
To feed the hungry, to give the thirsty a drink, to be caring to strangers, to cloth the naked, to look after the sick, to help those who've hurt us. (Matthew 25:35-36)
To help the poor, the imprisioned, the sick and the oppressed. (Luke 4:18)
In other words to love everyone and help those who need help as summed up in the parable of the "Good Samaritan". (Luke 10:25-37)
Nothing says we can expect to be magically protected while we do any of this. In fact, Christian doctrine teaches that we can expect opposition, that this will be hard, that evil will oppose us. Even Paul, the most famous missionary of all suffered beatings, stonings, fell sick at least once, and refers in one of his letters to some sort of ongoing medical problem ("a thorn in the flesh") which persistent prayer had failed to heal.
Nowhere does God ever promise it will be easy or that obstacles will vanish by prayer - numerous examples in the Bible show the opposite. Christianity is not about "what 10,000 wonderful things can God do to make me happy?" (unless one has been listening to too many wacko fundy evangelists), but about "what can I do for God?".
So I will do what I can as I can.

Kosh

Southern Baptist, Tercel. Not American Baptist.

[Man on the wall]: What's the bloody difference?

[King Arthur]: Well, American Baptists aren't migratory!