wildernesse

Hi, Charlie:

I participate here because I enjoy meeting and learning about other people and their views--this includes any (non)religious views they might have. I have read almost all of the atheist testimony thread and heard stories from people (including my husband) about why they have either rejected Christianity and/or do not believe in supernatural concepts.

I do care about how people see the world I share with them. If I don't attempt to learn what others value and their views, how do I know that I'm not harming them? Ignorance may be bliss, but it comes at too steep a price many times.

--tibac

Yellum Notnef

What you said above about NOT evangelizing *IS* rational and might very well be the most rational thing you've ever said on this forum about your religion.

Now if you could only convince the rest of those fools who act like us nonbelievers have never heard the wonderful news about this rather strange looking Jew called Jesus.

Charlie

Rational BAC,
Thanks again for sharing! Btw, couldn't help but chuckle about your statement, "..I think she will be kicked lovingly into heaven". That's cute Also, find it interesting that you go by "Rational BAC".. at first glance, and on another thread, I thought you to be a rationalist type atheist.
Once again thanks for all you have shared.
Sincerely,
Charlie

Charlie

Very well said!
Also interested in waht you mean by "If I don't attempt to learn what others value and their views, how do I know that I'm not harming them?" Would you be so kind as to expand on this and perhaps offer some examples regarding this statement?
And Btw, I noticed you signed with "--tibac", is this your name or does it have another meaning (and it's ok with me if it is something private)?
Sincerely,
Charlie

Opera Nut

Hi Charlie et al.,
Thanks Rat, for that "lovingly kicked into heaven" line!

Growing up I was not indoctrinated except in a very general way. Our family went to a liberal Presbyterian church in a very redneck environment (Pasadena, Texas -- the place they filmed "Urban Cowboy").

Growing up, I enjoyed the social aspects and sang in the high school kids' choir. My two best girlfriends went to the same church and one of them was the minister's oldest child. Presbyterians were well educated and it was like a social club. Certainly nobody challenged anyone on their faith or how holy they were. Nobody was self righteous or holier-than-thou. It was merely an upper-middle class social club.

I think my parents wanted me to have some sort of generally moral upbringing but never told me to be a certain religion or else. In fact, they did not baptise me when I was a baby, and my grandmother was quite upset about that fact. When I asked Mom, she said"we want you to make up your own mind."
I thought that was a noble sentiment.

In college I discovered Unitarian-Universalism and found other liberal secularlists like myself. My senior year in college I married a Jewish boy who was very young and immature. He was Reform, and his parents were always screaming at me about converting. I had gone to the Reform temple with him. They were flabbergased when I told them, "I'm not a Christian. Never have been. How can I convert, when I'm not a Christian? I'll be happy to be a Jew."
His parents were the stereotypical screaming Jews. What I couldn't understand was that they were Reform, and didn't keep kosher and all that, but you would have thought they were Orthodox, the way they raised hell.

We went to the Justice of the Peace and had a civil ceremony. He was 19 and I was 24. He transfered to the Catholic college down the street as a music major. He screwed at least 7 of my girlfriends at both Trinity and Incarnate Word College. His organ teacher at IWC was a nun, and she questioned him about his outrageous catting around. She asked him if I was dating other men and he said "No."

At the same time, I would go to the Sister's office and cry on her shoulder. She was like a mother to me. I never thought I would cry on a nun's shoulder, but she was there for me and understanding. I finally got sick of covering up for him, so I told his parents what a lowlife spoiled little boy they had.

He moved out on me after 9 months, since he couldn't understand why I was so pissed off at him for screwing around on me. I moved back to Houston, and I typed my own divorce petition, my dad represented me, and he signed a waiver, so that brief and painful period was over. Had the marriage lasted I would have been a Jew and happy about it, since I admire their culture.

I was a Unitarian for years or a non-church goer. I was a pianist, fiddler, and singer in various U-U churches and had to deal with politics and not having any power in the church game.
My second husband was an atheist and we got married at the Unitarian church. He is a sociopath but that had nothing to do with atheism.

After I got divorced, I met another guy who I know live with at the same Unitarian church I had been married at some years before. When Barbara Jordan died we went down to her church which is Missionary Baptist, and went to the wake. We thought that maybe her church might have something that would make us strong, like it made her strong as part of the House Judiciary Committee during the Watergate hearings. She was a Congresswoman from Houston and a brilliant speaker. She sounded like the voice of God.

We figured we would finally try Xtianity since the Jeezers had been telling us how f'ing wonderful it was to be in this special club where everything was good and Jesus talked to you and was your friend, if you just prayed hard enough.

We went to her church and liked the emotional release. Eventually we decided to join to do our bit to reach across the racial divide. I was baptised full dunk style. I read my bible and prayed. But God never showed up. The message I got was taht I was never good enough, I was a worthless P.O.S., "Our righteousness is as filthy rags", etc.

We also went to a huge Methodist Church which is run by Kirbyjon Caldwell, a black minister who has sucked up to Bush Junior. We asked both of these large churches to help us find jobs. I would sit in church and cry when the preachers would rant about "living in sin". I would cry all the time when they were scaring the shit out of people. These were educated black people, teachers and professionals, listening to this crap.

Boyfriend recorded and mixed on a 24-track, and mastered on to CD, a gospel concert held at Good Hope MBC. When we asked the minister to pay us for his services, so we could make a living and get a cut of each CD he sold, he wouldn't pay BF anything.
We decided God wants us to starve to death, and make us feel guilty for living together. If my BF had not been taken in by me, after he got a video degree, he would literally have been a bum on the street. This man has a BS and an MS in Physics, by the way and had been unemployed for quite a few years.

Eventually I couldn't take the criticism and original sin crap, and as I said, one woman called me and told me I had no right to charge for typing some ignorant preacher's sermons for a woman who wanted them. I got this deep feeling of evil in my gut when I typed them, and I never met the guy.
Anyway, that sent me over the edge to suicidal ideation and the wrist slashing attempt. Those well meaning Christians sent me to new depths of despair about my life and my boyfriend's life.
God never talked to me, and everything got worse instead of better. Then I got blamed for not being a good enough Christian of course. That's the standard reply. You're not trying hard enough.

I checked myself into the local county funny farm and the treatment was a joke. I didn't have a substance abuse problem, nor was I schizophrenic and hearing voices, so no help for me. Two weeks wasted. The only thing good about it was that I was away from the kitchen knife drawer.

I think we should all attempt to be good people merely because it is the right thing to do, not because God is standing over it. Alan Dershowitz has written a great article about that that was at beliefnet. He argues that the atheist who does good is better than the Christian who does good, because the atheist has no hope of reward in heaven.

I go to a Chinese Buddhist temple occasionally with a small group of English speakers and I enjoy it. I think Western civilization and exp. Christianity is tired and dead, and not relevant to today's problems. That sky-daddy never talked to me and I could do nothing about it.


"Better hands that heal than lips that pray."
--Moses Mendelssohn, famous rabbi and grandfather of Felix Mendelssohn, composer.


I do not want to be in a Heaven that only admits Christians. Most of the cool people will be in hell anyway, like Gandhi, Ravi Shankar, Confucius, Buddha, Rumi, Alan Watts, Krishnamurti, Jack Benny, Leslie Howard, Mark Twain, Oscar Wilde.....

Opera Nut

Charlie, I could reason long before I made a commitment to xtianity. I just decided to give it a try because of all the PR they put out. I thought OK, I'll see if they're right. I'll become one of them and see if everything is wonderful after that.

WRONGG!!

A fairy tale of a protective sky daddy, no less and certainly more ridiculous than many other sky daddy beliefs.

wildernesse

As a Christian, I feel that I am called to be respectful and compassionate to the other people that I meet--however, if I know nothing about those other people, how on earth can I do this? If I simply project my values and views onto them, then the only people I will even be close to understanding are people with my motivations, values, views, etc--and this world is full of people who are nothing like me. In fact, my attempts to show compassion could not only ring hollow to others, but be downright disrespectful and/or harmful.

There are plenty of examples here about Christians whose interactions with nonbelievers come across as heartless and cold, although I am pretty sure most of them meant well. Most of this has to do with not trying to understand the other person and projecting themselves and their needs onto the other.

I don't think that this just applies to religious behavior, but also to anything that we do. Acting in ignorance means that we aren't able to make the best decision in a given situation, whatever our ends are.

And tibac is my initials, in a way.
--tibac

Charlie

Opera Nut, Thanks for sharing so much. Yes I have some friends who also tried christianity in hopes that it would help their lives only to have their lives fall deeper into despair. I also have some friends who are christian, and seem very happy, of whom I am still trying to learn how and why they are believers.
Thanks,
Charlie

Charlie

wildernesse, nicely said! I must agree that the better you know a person the better you will be able to convey compassion and respect. Often times, fights and bad ill towards others, is all becuase of miscommunication leading to quick judgment. So you are like me.. you are here at this forum to learn more about nonbelievers? While I am here to learn more about believers! One might say that that is why all of us are here? However, based on what I know thus far about believers, I was thinking that some beleivers (very few) may just want to learn because they are just interested, while others (many more) are questioning there belief, and still others (most) are actually here to try and convert the nonbelievers? May I ask if this seems fair to you? And would you be willing to share which group you fall into? Or perhaps I am missing still another group that you would fall into?
In fairness, I will let you know that my motivation (and you may have already seen me say this in other posts) as a nonbeliever is NOT to try and convert believers to come to my side of reason (although it may appear that way in some debates), but rather my motivation is based on my fascination of how and why people believe.. the power of belief.
Sincerely,
Charlie

wildernesse

Charlie:

If you keep complimenting me on my posts, you'll soon be my favorite poster. Well, maybe second favorite--RufusAtticus is my fave!

I'm here to learn more about people, plain and simple. I have found that I am happiest when I am surrounded by intelligent people who have very different ideas than I do, about all sorts of subjects. It's a good way to learn lots of interesting things--and to test your ideas also. It usually doesn't mean that I agree or become like the people that I'm around, but it gives me lots to think about.

From what I see of the theists that hang around here for the longest, I would say that most are here for the interaction with others, then the next grouping would be here because they are testing their beliefs, and then the next would be conversion of nonbelievers. Maybe I just don't hang around in the threads where the preaching is, though. People tend to see what they want.

Anywho, how other people see the world is pretty fascinating to me also! We generally have the same info, and yet so many different conclusions.

--tibac