KnightWhoSaysNi

I think one reason that the ideology of socialism (especially a more extreme "dictatorship of the proletariat") is not as popular in western democracies, has to do with values. The values of individualism vs. collectivism. If communists desire to have any success at all in western democracies, they'll need to shift the inherent individualist values of the population. That ain't likely going to happen...

I know that the values in the poll aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but try to vote where your gut feels that your personal values are most in tune with.

Hugo Holbling

I know it isn't really the done thing, but i'm going to make a shameless plug for my own thread in the philosophy forum, wherein i'm trying to discuss this very thing; in particular, i wonder if the very methodologies adopted by either side are incommensurable.

Mods: my apologies, but i think my thread is relevant to the potential discussion here.

Luiseach

Yep, I agree with you that the values included in this poll aren't mutually exclusive, but I'm playing along with the 'game' anyway (lol...in keeping with the rules of the collective? jk... ;-) ). I voted for the individual over the collective.

I would like to add something to this, though: I truly think that even though the rights and freedoms of the individual are paramount, there must be a balance between these individualistic values and the rights and freedoms of the collective. The trick is, of course, trying to strike a happy balance between the individual and the collective...as I once heard someone say, math is hard. ;-)

Thieving Magpie

I voted collective over individual because I think humanity's 'supreme' mission is little more than proliferation of the species - the good of the collective, in other words.

Individuals be damned!

Luiseach

How awfully 1984 of you! ;-)

Grad Student Humanist

And who determines what the "collective good" is? Popular vote, simple majorities, mob rule, or an enlightened few who really know what's good for us?

If we followed your reasoning then the overwhelming religious majorities in the world could then force us to join them. After all, we're a small minority that's just causing trouble and we have no individual right to freedom from religion, certainly not one which outweighs the "collective good" of having one religious/moral system. And if we still refuse I guess they could just kill us too, huh?

Mageth

I voted for "individual responsibility", but I think part of that responsibility is considering the needs of the "collective", so to speak.

Thieving Magpie

Whoah, horsie, whoah!

One - don't put words in my mouth.
Two - don't jump to hasty conclusions.
Three - kindly fuck off and die. (j/k)

I never mentioned anything about who or what determines what the 'collective good' is - I simply stated that I believe it is superior to the 'individual good.'

If we followed my reasoning, your one option that you suggested is but one of a near infinite amount of possibilities.

However, should 'we' refuse the 'collective good' then yes, perhaps we should be killed. Everyone someday dies, so it's irrelevant if I am personally happy, unhappy and so forth for periods of my life.

August Spies

Any sane system needs a fusion of the two. My personal values are tied up with both social and individual values, Im not sure I could side either way.

Mageth

I voted collective over individual because I think humanity's 'supreme' mission is little more than proliferation of the species - the good of the collective, in other words.

Individuals be damned!

You should consider changing your screen name to "Collective 0-0009."

For the word "We" must never be spoken, save by one's choice and as a second thought. This word must never be placed first within man's soul, else it becomes a monster, the root of all the evils on earth, the root of man's torture by men, and an unspeakable lie.

Ayn Rand, Anthem, Ch. 11.