the_cave

As a theist, I wouldn't argue, I guess as some are trying to do, that preserving the free will of the criminal is more important than the free will of the victim. However, I also believe that god's knowledge is limited by our freedom. In other words, we participate in determining the future. Both the criminal and the victim are granted free will--if the criminal chooses to radically deny the victim's free will, they're free to do so--they freely choose to use power for evil, without god's knowledge that they were going to. It appears that god is the sort of god who couldn't set things up in a better way--or, that things couldn't be set up in a better way, period.

And I feel that arguing against this god is like arguing against existence itself. Evil acts still exist for the atheist--do they therefore hate the same creation which gives us joy, beauty, and peace? They can protest that they don't worship creation, but so far I haven't asked anyone here to worship god. They can also say they don't love creation for what it is, though they can love good events. Which is fair, but so far I haven't asked anyone here to love god, either. But then my faith is far more existentialist than the average Christian. I will say, for its sake, that Christianity at least teaches that god suffers the same pain that we do, because he is a part of creation itself.

Soma

Upon further thought, I recant my admission of defeat and have revised my argument:

God's nature is such that He only commits acts which are always just. God does not prevent suffering in the world because allowing suffering to exist is a just act to God. The argument that an omnibenevolent deity would not permit suffering to exist falls apart because it attempts to treat God as a human being, which is a fallacy. God is benevolent because He always acts justly.

Treacle Worshipper

Is there room for mercy in god's justice? If not, an awful lot of people are going to end up in hell, including those who don't expect to.
TW

Soma

That's another issue, and not one I've really considered.

However, I don't believe God is the one who punishes anyone. God designed man in such a way that every person makes his own destiny. So, he who sins earned his own passage to Hell.

MrDarwin

Translation:

God makes all the rules.

Might makes right.

Philosoft

You just appealed to a standard higher than God.
Again, if we don't share the same concept of justice, it is meaningless for us to speak of God's actions as "just." His actions are his actions; that's the most you can say.

Soma

No I didn't. Since God alone can deem His actions as just or otherwise, it is only when God actually deems one of His acts as unjust that God contradicts His nature. God is the sole judge of His own actions.

God is perfect and infallible by nature, hence so are His actions.

Soma

Basically.

sourdough

dont you believers KNOW that God controls everything,and everyone?ie we have no choice,really :banghead:

Philosoft

The very act of judging implies a standard. What standard is God judging himself by?
If God defines these standards by his being or by his will, the standards themselves are meaningless because there are no possible God-populated worlds in which God is imperfect or fallible, yet God may possess different attributes in different worlds.