diana

Mr. Kelly,

I've been thinking more about this. Additional comments to your post follow.

I find it revolting on a far deeper level with the images I have when someone mentions the sexual exploitation of children: I imagine a mild-mannered, quiet and nondescript man who takes the time to earn the child's trust, then begins to take liberties with the child, quite innocent and playful at first, testing the waters and slowing raising the stakes. I imagine a long-term subtle seduction of the child in which the child is made to feel special so that he feels guilty saying no to anything the man requests. The man makes it feel good, then bribes the child and offers rationalization as necessary.

This idea chills me to the bone. The subtle encroachment is difficult to detect or pinpoint. It is an abuse of trust and produces children who are deeply disturbed and afraid to tell anyone what's going on because they think it's their fault.

It is comments such as the above that keep giving me the distinct impression--and this is sheer speculation, I admit--that you were such an object of adult affection as a child, don't feel that it warped you in any way, and therefore see no reason to not seek out children for yourself. After all, if this were something that was accepted and was passed down regularly with each generation, then it would lose its stigma, and therefore any damaging effects it has now. Surely the only thing "wrong" with you is that you're drawn to children (judging from your website), and that's only "wrong" because society--or even "freethinkers"--isn't truely openminded, in your opinion.

I'm not trying to attack you, and I apologize if I'm offbase. I'm just trying to make sense of the undertone of your posts on this subject, such as this one:

Do you see what I mean? You keep implying that you have inside knowledge that sex with children can be a beautiful thing.

d

Loren Pechtel

The problem is that the punishment does not fit the crime, especially since they execute innocents for it. (Given the draconian penalties the drug runners don't want to carry it across the border. So they hide it in luggage belonging to innocent travellers.)

Loren Pechtel

Pat Kelly, just to second this:

Originally posted by diana
Now. Pop back to MF&P's main page and check the list of MF&P moderators at the top. They're the ones that are in bold print. Do you see "diana" on there anywhere? That would be because I mod EoG.

I don't have the power to do anything with your post here except reply to it.


You'll note that my name also says "Moderator". I'm over in PD, though, not here. Not 5 minutes ago I accidently hit edit instead of quote--and got the "you don't have permission to access this page" message.

Pat Kelly

Why does it always seem the last people to know they are wrong are the first people to claim so loudely that they are right? Have you even considered the real possibility you just might be wrong in the way you have learned to view issues surrounding childhood sexuality?

I have likely been where you are and once held a view I suspect is very similar to your own. Have you ever rationally considered the possibility that children might be better off in a world that does not force them into celibacy?

The key words here are "I imagine". We can all imagine any manner of things but that does not make what we imagine either real or in any way related to reality. While we are taking liberties with our imaginations and trying to derive images of each other, I would have to say my off-the-cuff impression of you is that you are gay and possess very negative impressions towards males. Nevertheless, what you and I imagine is not really that important.

Give me a break please. You have labeled me a witch or communist or pedophile simply because I have rationalized my way off the anti-sex bandwagon you ride with whips and spurs all running in high gear. Anyone who might happen to have reached a different conclusion than your own that sex is in itself not such a bad thing, even when kids enjoy it is automatically classified by you as someone attempting to turn the world into a pedophile paradise.

Your mind is not open to the rather obvious reality you live in a highly sexually repressed society that makes it impossible for you to even consider your ideas of normal actually fall well within the range of abnormal. As far as anything you might see as a attack against me personally, you will need to raise yourself up a few notches on the intelligence level before I will even start to take you seriously. You are very typical and there is nothing new, unique or surprising coming from any of what you claim to be your own thoughts. It's the same old broken record of I'm the good guy(gal) in this movie who needs to protect the poor defenseless children from all the sexual wolves. And while you are giving yourself a pat on the back and a gold medal as a savior of children, know that I and many who follow will not see you in this light.

Am I more qualified to arrive at rational and honest understandings concerning the reality of childhood sexuality than you are? You bet I am though it is nothing much to brag about.

You mean because I do not automatically and blindly condemn everything even remotely related to childhood sexuality in the same way you do without first putting it to a test of rationality, I must be sexually attracted to children? Even if I was sexually attracted to children, if anything that would only serve to increase my knowledge on the subject. Do me a favor. Do some research beyond what everyone else is telling you, develop some ideas not so tied to your imagination and try to wake up a little. Then come back and propose you would like to rationally explore some of the issues surrounding childhood sexuality. Sorry if this is a little rough but I tend to respond in kind. Nothing personal intended unless it fits.

emphryio

....well I can sort of see where Pat Kelly is coming from but I don't bother with quite that much free thinking nowadays.

I just like to know what is going on in the world. All of it, good and bad. It's kind of scary to think I could accidentally click on the wrong link and be off to jail as a pedophile. What a world.

Poor Pete Townsend.

Dominus Paradoxum

[personal attack deleted]

Ut

Would you care to explain? I honestly don't know how the US government is supposed to have been the largest supplier of child porn.

Pat Kelly

Are you suggesting I should take these questions as the serious inquiries of an inquisitive mind? If so I've got a new bridge I just built I have to show you... The deal of a lifetime!

Why don't you just come out and keep it simple: kids=no sex, no way, no how, never, nada, nit, wrong, bad, evil, sin, immoral, unhealthy...

Now you have jumped to another of your wild claims while offering absolutely nothing to back it up. Let's chat a bit about this long-term psychological damage you refer to. I challenge you to detail even one psychological harm directly attributable to sex experienced as pleasurable regardless of age that is directly related to sex as opposed to the social response to sex and the implications that arise from that response. I am 100% sure you will be unable to produce even a single tangible or reality based harm that falls within the above stated criteria.

So if you are unable to offer any evidence that details a specific psychological harm resulting from sex that is experienced as pleasurable, would you be willing to concede that sexual relations in themselves are not psychologically harmful irrespective of the age, gender, relation or any other factor relevant to one's sexual partner(s)?

On the other hand, would you suggest we should rush all the dolphins, monkeys are other species near us on the evolutionary scale into emergency therapy due to their promiscuous sexual natures that has always include sexual behavior with their young? Without some angelic or moralistic explanation how would you account for the obvious discrepancy between the way you have been taught humans should behave sexually and the fact of how all the other species behave? Would you hold yourself and your all too temporary and clearly irrational views above the reality of billions upon billions of years of evolution? Silly question... Sure you would! You have to in order to rationalize and maintain what you have learned to believe.

Sorry, I just don't believe you. You are just as attracted to Reality TV as the rest of us and even if you personally are not, that does not diminish the fact almost everyone else is. What's your point?

Ms. Diana, when you were a child... Do I smell a loaded question here you already have answers for? If I say I had a personal sexual experience with an adult when I was a child you will likely reply with something like; "OK this explains how you developed such anti-social views because you obviously suffered psychological damage from the incident." On the other hand, if I say no you will say I have no real first-hand experience to draw from and must therefore be relying exclusively upon assumptions.

I feel compelled to ask you the same question and challenge the validity of your views based upon your answer. To answer your question I like many others did have a sexual experience with an adult when I was a child. If you would like to read the details you will have to go to my website the name of which I have promised not to reveal in my posts on this board.

Allow me to enlighten you. There is no law in the United States or Canada against such a things so long as they fall under the heading of news.

Yes, I have done all of that and more. If you are able to find your way to the website I am involved with I would suggest you locate an article titled: "The Faces of Pornography". You better have a couple of stiff shots of whiskey before you tackle this and make sure your blood pressure medication is at hand because it is long and covers a lot of ground that may not sit well with you. I spent more than 6-months researching this article including gathering together more than 500 images of people of all ages enjoying their sexuality. What I am legally unable to show you in the article is even stronger evidence that sex is an overwhelmingly positive experience regardless of age.


Well for one thing it might cause you to question some of your imagined impressions of how sex is actually experienced by children. It seems to me it would be better to form opinions based upon viewing tangible evidence related to childhood sexuality than to rely exclusively on what you read in the news. This of course does not take into consideration the fact of child pornography laws and how they might impact not only upon your views of childhood sexuality but your freedom as well.

The only way I can answer this is to say my experience has led me to believe it is far better to know the truth than to live a lie. If our social views on sex, including childhood sexuality are screwed-up then we need to think about doing something to correct them even if it raises the sensitivities of people like Diana.

Children should have as much right to their sexuality as any of the rest of us even if it means we might have to concede the world is not flat.

Right Diana?

diana

Mr. Kelly,

Did you wish to discuss this, supporting and defending your views, or do you intend to simply disparage anyone who disagrees with you? I thought you were here for discussion, so I put time and thought into my response. I've asked you for more information in many areas.

I see you responded to some of my comments--which is fine--but answered none of my questions. The questions were to the point concerning the "morality" of child porn--which is, unless I miss my guess, what you wish to convince everyone is morally acceptable--and how, exactly, you arrived at this conclusion.

I daresay you don't stand much chance of "opening" anyone's mind unless you answer their questions honestly.

Yes. I've considered it before and I'm considering it now. I'm attempting to discuss it with someone, but his failure to answer my questions in this vein strikes me as insincere, to say the least.

And where am I, praytell? You presume to know an awful lot about me. What is my view, anyway? I'm keen to know.

So should the record reflect that you think "children shouldn't be coerced into sex with men" is synonymous with "children are forced into celibacy"?

OK. So what is the reality? Enlighten me.

I'm not on the "anti-sex bandwagon," to my knowledge. But "condoning sex" does not equate to "condoning adults having sex with children," last I checked. I have not at any point stated that children don't or shouldn't enjoy their own sexuality. But leaving them to their own devices is quite removed from seducing them or filming them in action.

I gather you get this a lot.

What an intriguing comment. What, exactly, makes you more qualified to arrive at a rational and honest understanding concerning the reality of childhood sexuality than I am? Inquiring minds want to know.

(Side note: OJ Simpson was heard to remark several months after the slayings, "But if I did kill her, it would be because I loved her. Right?")

Hm. You claim to be more qualified to arrive at a rational and honest understanding concerning the reality of childhood sexuality than me. You do not deny being sexually attracted to children when I point out that this is in the undertones of your posts. Instead, you choose to respond with the indignant comment to the effect that I have a lot of GALL to leap to such a conclusion, then remark that your sexual attraction to children, if you had it, would only increase your knowledge on the subject.

I gather my wild guess concerning your sexual history, et al, was dead on balls accurate?

I suspect that your sexual attraction to children, if you had it, would actually make you more irrational in this matter, more anxious to see your tastes as morally acceptable, and therefore far less qualified to make a fair decision than an person who has no selfish motives.

That's the funny part, Pat. I'm trying to. But every time I get into a conversation with a sexual predator and ask him pointed questions, the better to understand where he's coming from, he doesn't answer them. Is there a better place to do this research you suggest?

I'm still waiting for you to produce even a modicum of this "rationality" you speak of. Rationality includes the ability to support and defend your own position. If you want to rap, drop the rhetoric and answer my questions.

d

Pat Kelly

Dominus Paradoxum

I will concede to the arrogance. Perhaps it comes with the territory. As far as the bastard part you will have to take that up with my mom and dad.

While we are entering into wagers over issues of intelligence, is there anything you have to add to the discussion that might give us some hit regarding your own intelligence?