Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 10-08-2002, 12:39 AM

Quote:

In creating humans, he makes them perfect. He gives them the ability to love, but this ability is not possible without the attendant ability to CHOOSE. To love something is to choose to do so. Love is not "programmable"--it must be freely done.

Nonsense. Love is programmable, it does not require free will. You have never owned a dog? A dog's love of its master is virtually unconditional: they have been bred to love.

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Of course, a choice necessarily entails alternatives. This is what is meant by free-will. We may choose to do what is good, or what is evil. Note: Should you deny the notion of free-will you must (1) reconcile this with the general human experience, and (2) resolve the contradiction with premise A, which states that God makes at least one choice (why would this preclude him from creating other beings who may also choose?)

(1) Not a problem. Free will is an expression of the limitations of the observer, the inability to perceive and evaluate ALL of the factors which determine the outcome of a decision. This is entirely consistent with human experience.

(2) Resolved thusly: There Is No God. WE do not have to resolve problems in Christian theology.

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I never claimed power over life and death. However, my wife and I definitely did create our children. There was nothing supernatural involved.

So, you created them? Tell me, then, how did you produce mind from non-mind? Or, what can you do to demonstrate that the mind is only the brain? Tell us, how did you decide what was just right for the gestation environment, or for the specialized external enviroment in which they now reside? Please enlighten us, what do you know about the origin or energy and matter, which comprises their physical frame?

Why do so many theists become so obtuse on this issue?

Of course K and his wife created their children!

In this context, it doesn't matter HOW they did it: what pre-existing materials or processes they used. If they fed organic matter into the hopper of a baby-making machine and pulled a lever, the child still owes its existence to THEIR conscious decision to bring that child into the world.

Therefore, by Christian logic, they have the right to reverse their decision at any time. Even the OT acknowledges this, to some extent: parents have the right to kill disobedient children.

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Yes, there are many things that I regret believing, such as:

I am my own.

But you haven't bothered to see who actually owns you. You have given yourself to the priesthood. You have failed to properly investigate their claims that the God from which they claim to derive their authority actually exists. This is clear from your uncritical acceptance of the Bible as truth.

And this is the problem. We do not uncritically accept the Bible as truth. We have discovered that it contains much falsehood.

This is not "vanity". This is not "rejection". This is not "pride". This is observation.

If there is a God, and I discover this after death: so what? It won't be the BIBLICAL God. I can honestly say that I was misled by the Bible (among other things).

We have made an informed decision. If the information on which it was based is somehow false, we are not to blame for choosing wrongly.

wdog · 10-08-2002, 04:41 AM

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Originally posted by K:
We do demand respect from our children while they are growing up.

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On what grounds do you demand their respect at all?

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Originally posted by K:
When they are punished, it s only to protect them and prepare them to operate as a member of society.
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Protect them from what?

I raise these questions in order that I may understand the justification for the beliefs you are sharing with us. I, for one, am curious about the substance behind these broad claims you are making.

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Originally posted by K:
I would never, ever, ever (can I say that enough?) punish them for revenge or because I wasn't worshipped. That would be a particularly cruel way for a parent to behave.

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You must remember that it is you who raises the issues of "punishment for refusal to worship" or "punishment for revenge". This is not biblical--at least to my knowledge. You will recall that hell is not so much a place, as it is a condition.

It is a choice.
It is a rejection.
It is a refusal to relinquish one's vanity.

Vanderzyden

we get (demand) respect by BEING THERE, caring for their needs and doing all the daily chores in raising them, we don't demand worship, we don't demand constant repentence for their being inherently 'sinful' but instead try and guide them as best we know how. If we simply left a book (bible) for them to read, demanded worship in our absence, and let them 'feel' us via prayer and worship, I think respect would not be requisite. What absentee parent deserves respect, let alone worship?

Protect them from a world in which you can survive only as an adult, why the hell is that so hard? Vander, if you think god loves your kids, if you have any, then simply leave them somewhere by themselves. ANY loving adult to these children will take care of them.

It is god who rejected me vander, he simply isn't here. it was entirely his choice to create the world as it is. he could have simply brought me 'home' to heaven when I was baby if he wants me so bad, or he could come here. It is his choice to choose seperation when all he would have to do is come here and show himself to me. If that is all my kid wanted, I would run like hell to him and reveal everything he wanted to see, do everything to convince him that I am his father, and try very hard to get him to come 'home'. Is your god doing that? No, he has rejected me, remember it is up to the 'adult' in a relationship to attempt to forge the bonds, your god refuses like some petulant, selfish, and overly touchy human.

vanity- bullshit, he is absentee

K · 10-08-2002, 04:50 AM

Vanderzyden:

I don't find the terminology so bold.

create - v. 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. 2. To give rise to; produce.

I'd tell you how we produced mind from non-mind, but I doubt my wife would appreciate me dicussing out sex life here. Although any elemantary biology text will give you an overview.

There is every reason to believe that the mind is only physical. All evidence points to brain as the center for thinking and personality. Disease, injury, chemicals, and electrical signals (all physical) acting on the brain of an individual can drastically affect that individual's mind and personality. You are certainly welcome to refute this or offer evidence that shows the mind is somehow non-physical, but that is probably an issue for another thread.

Deciding the absolute details are not a necessity for creation. When you created your last post, how did you decide what shape the electrical signals should be between your keyboard and your motherboard? How did you decide how many electrons should make up the pattern that your message was stored in? That clearly is not a requirement from the definition of create.

"on what grounds do you demand respect at all?"

We demand respect because right now, they are too young to have learned how to live safely without guidance and to participate as a fully functioning member of society. We demand respect because, until they are old enough to learn to decide for themselves who has earned respect, they are dependent on our decisions and must obey us for their own protection.

"Protect them from what?"

Protect them from the dangers of the world that their physical brains have not yet learned. If there were a God and He were doing His job correctly, they would have been born with the knowledge that they can't safely run out into the street or drink poisonous chemicals. At this age, we are forced to demand that they simply obey our orders when it comes to their personal safety.

I raise these questions in order that I may understand the justification for the beliefs you are sharing with us. I, for one, am curious about the substance behind these broad claims you are making.

At the risk of repeating myself way too often...

If God creates a person in a design He chooses - knowing that, with that design, that person will make choices that will cause herself or himself to suffer for all eternity, then it is nobody's responibility but God's for the eternal torment of that individual.

K · 10-08-2002, 04:52 AM

wdog:

Very nicely put.

ManM · 10-08-2002, 04:56 AM

K,

Quote:

The question still remains as to why God would not simply allow those who rejected Him to cease existing.

It is because He loves them. If your child had severe depression, would you allow them to commit suicide?

[ October 08, 2002: Message edited by: ManM ]</p>

Jamie_L · 10-08-2002, 05:00 AM

Van,

Busy thread, so I understand you can't reply to everything. However, I am interested in your response to a previous post of mine. I'll repeat the finer points:

Quote:

I have grown to adulthood, taking in 30 years worth of observations about the world. I have come to the conclusion that I have no reasonable/rational reason to believe the Christian God exists. This is not a conscious rejection, but rather an assesment of the facts and a judgement based on my experience.

Again, why am I to be punished for making a decision based on inputs I did not create using mental faculties I did not create?

Now, your discussion of free agency and faults is interesting, and may make some sense in general terms, but it seems to fail when dealing with specific individuals. Going back to my above post, I do not feel that I used my free will to choose disbelieve God. In fact, right before fully accepting my atheism, I tried one last time to go back to Christianity. I read the NT and meditated on it. But in the end, I still did not believe.

How do you feel my personal free agency lead to this? Again, the outside information is not mine to control. My personality was mostly not mine to craft. My conclusions are the result of the two. Where did my free agency come into play?

Jamie

wdog · 10-08-2002, 05:07 AM

Quote:

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In creating humans, he makes them perfect. He gives them the ability to love, but this ability is not possible without the attendant ability to CHOOSE. To love something is to choose to do so. Love is not "programmable"--it must be freely done.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nonsense. Love is programmable, it does not require free will. You have never owned a dog? A dog's love of its master is virtually unconditional: they have been bred to love.

A parent's love is a choice? again that is nonsense, these bonds are instinctual to most people and animals, and we develope them into a relationship via our actions.

Dr. Retard · 10-08-2002, 05:22 AM

You ignored my last question, so...

Quote:

Vanderzyden:
It is a choice.
It is a rejection.
It is a refusal to relinquish one's vanity.

Who ends up in hell, on your view? Ayn Rand? Friedrich Nietzsche? Glen Benton? I'm trying my best to think of people who might choose to reject God, due to a refusal to relinquish their own vanity. It's hard to even imagine a person like that. Moreover, all the atheists I know personally are pretty humble and conscious of their own faults (often too conscious). Do you have some sociological data linking extreme lunatic arrogance to atheism? Because that's the only way you could render reasonable the belief that atheists end up in hell.

K · 10-08-2002, 06:30 AM

ManM:

If my child was suffering a deep, tortuous torment of a depression that had NO HOPE of ever subsiding and would last for all eternity, I wouldn't only allow him to commit suicide, I would HELP him in any way he thought appropriate. It would tear me apart to the point where I have no idea how I would go on. But to force him to endure such a cruel fate isn't love. It's some kind of depraved selfishness which is beyond my ability to fathom.

ManM · 10-08-2002, 06:55 AM

K,
We have a different view of morality in this case. A good doctor does not allow depressed people to kill themselves, but rather he tries to heal them, even against all odds. Likewise I would expect a good God to eternally strive against the sickness and not simply destroy the entire person on account of that sickness.

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10-08-2002, 04:50 AM	#393
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	Vanderzyden: I don't find the terminology so bold. create - v. 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. 2. To give rise to; produce. I'd tell you how we produced mind from non-mind, but I doubt my wife would appreciate me dicussing out sex life here. Although any elemantary biology text will give you an overview. There is every reason to believe that the mind is only physical. All evidence points to brain as the center for thinking and personality. Disease, injury, chemicals, and electrical signals (all physical) acting on the brain of an individual can drastically affect that individual's mind and personality. You are certainly welcome to refute this or offer evidence that shows the mind is somehow non-physical, but that is probably an issue for another thread. Deciding the absolute details are not a necessity for creation. When you created your last post, how did you decide what shape the electrical signals should be between your keyboard and your motherboard? How did you decide how many electrons should make up the pattern that your message was stored in? That clearly is not a requirement from the definition of create. "on what grounds do you demand respect at all?" We demand respect because right now, they are too young to have learned how to live safely without guidance and to participate as a fully functioning member of society. We demand respect because, until they are old enough to learn to decide for themselves who has earned respect, they are dependent on our decisions and must obey us for their own protection. "Protect them from what?" Protect them from the dangers of the world that their physical brains have not yet learned. If there were a God and He were doing His job correctly, they would have been born with the knowledge that they can't safely run out into the street or drink poisonous chemicals. At this age, we are forced to demand that they simply obey our orders when it comes to their personal safety. I raise these questions in order that I may understand the justification for the beliefs you are sharing with us. I, for one, am curious about the substance behind these broad claims you are making. At the risk of repeating myself way too often... If God creates a person in a design He chooses - knowing that, with that design, that person will make choices that will cause herself or himself to suffer for all eternity, then it is nobody's responibility but God's for the eternal torment of that individual.

10-08-2002, 04:52 AM	#394
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	wdog: Very nicely put.

10-08-2002, 06:30 AM	#399
K Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,485	ManM: If my child was suffering a deep, tortuous torment of a depression that had NO HOPE of ever subsiding and would last for all eternity, I wouldn't only allow him to commit suicide, I would HELP him in any way he thought appropriate. It would tear me apart to the point where I have no idea how I would go on. But to force him to endure such a cruel fate isn't love. It's some kind of depraved selfishness which is beyond my ability to fathom.

10-08-2002, 06:55 AM	#400
ManM Veteran Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: NW Florida, USA Posts: 1,279	K, We have a different view of morality in this case. A good doctor does not allow depressed people to kill themselves, but rather he tries to heal them, even against all odds. Likewise I would expect a good God to eternally strive against the sickness and not simply destroy the entire person on account of that sickness.

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