Rusting Car Bumper

See my further comments. I watched the March on CSpan. Although the emphasis wasn't on anti-religious rheotoric there was still too much for my taste. However, great things were said as well.

Non-believers and believers must realize that neither group is going away. We must learn to respect each other. This is a social problem and not a political one. I have no problem critiquing any viewpoint which says otherwise whether it involves one march, 100 marches or no marches.

BTW, there was a move to include this sort of message in the program but it was rebuffed by the organizers.

DC

Rusting Car Bumper

I would argue that if we spent more time DEMONSTRATING to our neighbors that we are good people and BEING EXAMPLES in our communities then our problems would be dissappear in most practical senses.

There seems to be an attitude that we need to fight political battles to get respect. However, the neighbor down the street doesn't let his kids play with the atheist kids NOT because of political reasons. He/She does it because of social reasons based on fear and ignorance. The political problems follow from this.

And thats a damn shame.. Some of my best friends are Christians. I think that comment speaks highly of what is wrong with this "movement". Its after the symptoms and not the disease.

No. I want to see my neighbor treat me as an equal human being without fearing me. When that happens political gains happen almost by osmosis.

DC

Shake

One of the main reasons I could not attend was funds. But I would've gone if I could have afforded the trip. It's a shame the numbers didn't at least reach 5 figures. I think if there'd been at least 10,000, there would have been more press. As it is, with the low numbers that were there, many theists will, not understanding that we godless really aren't the organizing types, discount the small numbers with some sort of an "I told you there weren't too many of them." It got absolutely ZERO press here in Western New York. I wish I'd have thought to write a letter to the editor endorsing the march some time beforehand.

dangin

Actually, David Silverman, the New Jersery state coordinator for AA, and that national youth director for AA made your exact point DC. He said that if every atheist outed themselves and suddenly all the average people of america realized that they knew several atheists already then most of our problems would be solved. (actually, he said all of our problems would be solved)

And I agree, but there is also a political reality, and a response that needs to be created to the encroachment being made against the wall of separation, and the "rewriting" of american history and culture. This reality might be changed by us being a warm and fuzzy friendly group, and it might not. Political action, in conjunction with a campaign to improve atheists image would work best. Certainly better than either would work alone.

Rusting Car Bumper

I agree.

I can;t stress enough that *we* in part have an attitude problem. Going around with buttons that have the word God crossed out and wearing shirts that say "Got Jesus? Nope!" may be cute and funny. However, its perceived as an attack on other persons just as we perceive personal affronts to ourselves.

In order to get respect we must give it.

DC

DougI

So if a Christian is wearing a cross they shouldn't get our respect for identifying their beliefs?

dangin

I agree that you catch more flies with honey and all, but at the same time, desensitization of sacred cows is good too.

But it is a fine line.

The all black with white text "from god" billboards drive me crazy. The xians don't care.

The god bless america proliferation is illogical, and it drives me crazy. The christians dont't care.

What we really don't need is in fighting. And even more than that, we don't need our own boycotting our attempts at unity because they are concerned about theist's feelings.

Shake

So speaketh dangin: Please let us all know if this documentary becomes available! I'm sure there are other folks that would be interested to see it!

The Admiral

Buffman

I just printed your post so that I could read it more carefully. It sounds very interesting.

The Admiral

capsaicin67

As for the March, I think we all knew that it had 2 likely/possible purposes--- self validation, and/or publicity.
I think that it also had 3 likely possibilities as far as outcome on the publicity front----Repubs and religious fanatics would turn it against us(negative publicity), or it would be great publicity (positive), or it would be ignored (mostly benign).
It looks like it had some value on the self-validation front, and the media response was mostly to ignore it, so it was mostly benign on the publicity front [I didn't hear a peep about it other than here, to the bulk of the population it never happened at all]. I think we can breathe a collective sigh of relief on that note. Short of preaching to many in the hardcore choir, which is fine, I don't know how much it impacted the advancement of any particular aspect of the nontheist cause.

The media has been very fundy friendly ever since we got Bush-whacked, and the Dems are hardly any better on these issues. So it seems like the only possible outcomes for that event were harmful or benign on the publicity front [the media was NOT going to rally around us nor support us]and thank goodness it had the benign outcome.

I spose it was a positive "group howl" for those members of the nontheist pack that went. But probably many of those that did not go found it to be self-indulgently risky to start with that whilst our cause is at its weakest. No harm done it appears though.

At best it will be a "family reuinion" or "company picnic" if it is done annually henceforth, and that is all good as long as the movement as a whole starts to seriously work on the most critical and neglected aspects [IMHO], too. Maybe it will start to be more of a genuine alliance/coalition and the groups will get more cooperative and less petty? If that could happen there could be activist workshops etc. More of a convention than a publicity stunt. The main reason that the publicity stunt may be a bit premature is because at this point we are TREMENDOUSLY outclassed and outmatched when it comes to publicity, marketing, outreach, fundraising, visibility, accessibility/community support, and media bias.

Every day the *general public* is bombarded by pro fundy propaganda. Music, videos, talk-show hosts, journalists, schools, churches, tv, movies, print media, celebrities on and on....around the clock. And there is nearly no pro-reason response or counter-outreach or support in comparison. The absence of discussion of religion and superstition isn't the same as the assertive endorsement of reason, and education about why it is important and good for society [minus the antagonizing and insulting that is fun, but not very professional nor ultimately productive, that DC spoke to].

To me, the wall of separation must be held through fighting the "good legal fight". Which there is some infrastructure for at this time. But its critical that we recognize that the religious xtremists recognize that runs straight up the middle and beating their heads on that wall was NOT working [e.g. the Gingrich years]. They could not win on the social agenda so what they are doing is "tunneling" UNDER the wall to breach it. And now the current administration is openly talking about the social agenda they will cram down our throats now that they have tunneled under and into and dominate the legislative "castle". They have totally outgunned us in the arenas of culture, media, and politics. They are right about the importance of the primacy of culture, and I think they are being rewarded for that belief daily.

The difference between Hannity and most venues where any sort of alternative pov is allowed?
Well, a few hours a day for starters. And also, at least on his radio show, it is NOT designed to allow dialogue and offer equal time to alt pov's. Those guys load the panels and pound their message home. Over, and over, and over. Daily. It's an infomercial [forgive me for using "info" in that] not journalism. And its mostly all that's on the menu. So people get tons of exposure to it. Junk. Total junkfood. The "Jackass/Tom Green" of politics and journalism [not just him but all those blowhards]. And people, in lieu of moderate security options, will rally around a bully everytime to feel stronger and less afraid. And they will eat Ho-Ho's in the absence of substance [some will always prefer them to nutritious food, yes, but most people I think would like some nutrition].

Summarize rant: The nontheist movement needs to seriously address fundraising, outreach, and support. When we have community and campus resources for support nationally available and easily accessible, more people will feel safe and interested in "out-ing". When the culture has more positive information and education about reason vs superstition, I think that the substance of our position can carry the day. But the key to the latter, if not both, is the *the media*. We need professional, expert, effective fundraisers, managers, marketers, publicists, and entertainers [talk show hosts that are moderate/centrist and still interesting]. And thinktanks that focus and produce projects to impact culture. A lot of work, yes, but ignoring that that is the leverage point in all this [which the xian xtremeists did some time back]will be the kiss of death at worst, or simply result in a tremendous longterm setback for us politically, at best. IMO.