daemon

Well, if you don't care whether you live or you die, you're correct, there is no hope involved. Given that most people desire their continued survival, however, any possibility of survival is better than none at all.
Got me. I was disproving your assertion that hope was illogical.
An appeal to hope? I'm afraid I can't even parse your complaint here.
It wasn't a matter of choice for me. I became agnostic as a result of my questioning, not because of any utilitarian evaluative process.

Besides, by this argument, the best belief system is believing you are personally omnipotent. Why don't you believe this, if this argument is so valid?

tronvillain

luvluv:
No, hope is not a belief. When one has hope that something will occur one does not believe that it will occur - one simply believes that it is possible that it will occur and takes comfort in that belief.

Since hope is not a belief (as I have explained) there is nothing illogical about having hope in an unlikely prospect. One simply takes comfort in a possibility of a positive outcome. The odds may be one hundred to one against survival, but there is a chance of survival, and so there is hope.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

luvluv

I never said it was valid as a source of belief, I said it was a reason why people reject strict materialistic atheism. It takes away a whole lot of hope and gives none back. (Whatever hope the person with 1% chance of survival has would be the result of the statistical probablity of his survival, not atheism). I actually said several times I thought it was a bad reason to believe, but nonetheless it is a pervasive one.

I'm done guys. See you tommorow.

luvluv

Hope is a belief. The Christian version of hope is at least. Christian hope expects outcomes. There is no reason for hope if you simply expect the physical probablities to play themselves out. Hope is a belief or it is nothing at all, it is an entirely superflous concept. Otherwise it is either meaningless restatement of probability or a statement of preference for an outcome.

(I get a kick out of the "as I have shown" statements around here. If you had shown it, it wouldn't be in dispute.)

I'm really out of here now.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: luvluv ]</p>

daemon

This is going nowhere. I can see no point in further discussion.

tronvillain

In what sense is hope a belief? When someone has hope in something they do not believe that it is certain to occur, and it is not apparent that there is any "Christian version" under which they do. If they believed it was certain to occur, hope would be completely unecessary.

tronvillain

luvluv:
Well, it takes away false hope and gives none back, that much is true. It is like telling someone that their chances of survival are one hundred to one against rather than two to one against. Perhaps they will be unable to handle it and cling to their false hope, or perhaps they will despair, or perhaps they will embrace reality, life life accordingly, and take hope in what chance they have.

Ryanfire

A god that rewards and punishes its creations for their actions, which are already known to god, has created nothing.

Humans who hope for a reward, based on their actions, which are already known to god, become meaningless.

Family Man

If I may do a bit of atheistic witnessing, maybe my experience will help the theists on this thread at least understand where atheists are coming from.

A long time ago, I was put in a miserable situation not of my own choosing. My only "fault" was that I was a little different from the people I had been thrown together with. Being a minor at the time, I couldn't even move to get away my tormentors. Being raised Christian, I looked to my faith for comfort, but I found nothing there. My situation remained unchanged. Even church was no help, as many of the worst perpetrators worshipped there also (and their faith appeared to have little affect on their behavior).

Things started to turn around when I realized that my hope lay elsewhere, starting with the fact that eventually I would be able to leave. In my journey, I discovered I had a great reservoir of patience and talent, and I learned the value of truly kind people who judged people generously based on perceived strengths, instead of harshly based on perceived weaknesses.

I became a atheist not because it offers me anything; I became an atheist because I believe true hope lies in the effort you put into life, not in what some mythical being is supposed to offer you.

I find myself often confronted with people that, on learning my religious position, say something to the effect of "You have no hope then (of an afterlife.)" My standard response is: "I don't know about that, but what are you going to do with the million dollars you're going to get tomorrow?" When I get the usual quizzical look, I'll say: "You mean you have no hope that a stranger is going to drop a million dollars on you tomorrow?"

The point being that just because someone has "hope" doesn't mean that hope is reasonable. I think the hope the Christian holds out is as meaningless as the hope that a windfall will drop in your lap through no effort of your own. I am grateful for the life I have, and I 've worked hard to get into a position where I am happy and even (almost) affluent. When I die, I won't ruin it by wishing for anything more. What I have has been more than enough.

DRFseven

My translation: People do believe things that YOU perceive are less believable than the alternatives. If you've ever had kids (or been one) you are probably aware, if you think about it, how many times you've heard, "I know I'll never make the team (pass the test, get a date with so-and-so, win the contest, etc.)." Perceptions of positive or negative outcomes are not decision predictors.

Rewards to the ego are indeed derived from this defense mechanism, but the racist does not choose to DESIRE the ego boost. The racist merely answers the implicit question, "Are we equal?", by searching his/her data base and coming up with "no", just as if the question had been "Are chocolate and vanilla ice cream equally good?" All kinds of experiences go into building that data base with its bullshit detector, but most of them are "stored" out of the range of conscious perception.

Within the neural structures of the cortex where past experiences are rated positively and negatively though emotional association. These structures form circuits that are built up during the course of an individual's life. That's the short answer.