Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 12-08-2002, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:
To make me believe I would need to see a real miracle. Something like the Virgin Mary 's picture in the burn marks of an over done taco, or other snack food.

LOL.

Oxymoron · 12-08-2002, 05:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amie:

At Lourdes, are miracles happening there, or is it simply the result of a psychological lift?
Miracles are happening there.

Oh no they are not. Even the most cursory investigation reveals that the 19th C originator of the healing myth who was allegedly directed to the cave by the Virgin Mary and told of its healing powers suffered poor health for her entire life.

Lourdes is a $400m a year cash-in on the gullible.

"Ooh! A lima bean that looks like the Leader!"

Bumble Bee Tuna · 12-08-2002, 09:02 AM

wow. Not only do you claim that coincidental football scores are miraculous, you also claim that scores that were almost coincidental, if they had just gone for a field goal, but actually weren't coincidental, are miraculous as well. You would think if God was actually omnipotent, he would be capable of actually making the score 33-3 instead of making it come close to 33-3 but not end up that way.
You're really stretching. Ever think that maybe there are hundreds of football games, and the chances are pretty high that through random chance occasionally the scores would turn out to be coincidental in some fashion?
And since you obviously attribute the miracles to God, why does he perform them? They have nothing to do with him, except for your 33-3 symbolic reference to the trinity, which is also of course the score that didn't actually happen.

-B

Amie · 12-08-2002, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Oxymoron:
Oh no they are not. Even the most cursory investigation reveals that the 19th C originator of the healing myth who was allegedly directed to the cave by the Virgin Mary and told of its healing powers suffered poor health for her entire life.

Lourdes is a $400m a year cash-in on the gullible.

"Ooh! A lima bean that looks like the Leader!"

limabean ugh!

no no no dearheart...miracles

BTW I propose that you and I go together to check it out. Can you afford to send me to France?

Biff the unclean · 12-08-2002, 11:50 AM

Now if I did see something really strange happen, an actual miracle....someone regrow a severed leg or come back from the dead after three days....why would I think it came from God?
If I didn't already believe in God, which I don't, the sight of something really strange happening would have me thinking, "Gee, something really strange is happening."
To believe in a God I would need there to be a God. Weird-arsed stuff happening doesn't imply that there was a God.

Amie · 12-08-2002, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean:
To believe in a God I would need there to be a God.

I found this statement so interesting.
Hi Biff the unclean
Do you think people believe in God only to satisfy the need to believe in something of a higher power?

ELECTROGOD · 12-08-2002, 12:14 PM

Quote:

BTW I propose that you and I go together to check it out. Can you afford to send me to France?

Now that WOULD be a miracle!

Family Man · 12-08-2002, 08:46 PM

Quote:

FM: Yes dear, but now you're assuming what is being held in question. Do miracles really happen, or do people assume that miracles happen?

Amie: I think both.

So how do we distinguish "real" miracles from the fake ones that come from people's misconceptions?

Quote:

FM: People at Fatima claimed that the sun danced? Then why wasn't that seen anywhere else in the world?

Amie: ahh the unexplainable unknowns of a miracle

Yes, isn't that the wonderful things about miracles, the fact that they depend on so many unknowns. Precisely why I don't find claims of the miraculous convincing

Quote:

FM: Isn't it more likely that heat, a presupposition of miracles, and mass hysteria produced a "miracle" than a miracle itself actually happening?

Amie: I don't think its more likely, however I understand how you would have drawn that conclusion...

But unless you can't rule out the alternative hypothesis, you can't be justified in claiming that Fatima was a miracle. After all, your belief is burdened with an extra-layer called the supernatural that we really don't know exists. My explanation, however, depends on only natural processes that are well-known to exist. Hence, my belief that the natural solution is more likely. I'm not sure why you think the miraculous explanation is the better one.

Quote:

FM: At Lourdes, are miracles happening there, or is it simply the result of a psychological lift?

Amie: Miracles are happening there. However there is also a psychological boost for some as well...

But I haven't seen any claim for the miraculous there that would require the conclusion that the miracles happen there.

Quote:

FM: And why is it that there is no documentation of a demonstrably impossible event -- something like the bus example in my initial report.

Amie: I don't know I wish there was. maybe there is somewhere...

If there had been, I'm sure we would have heard of it. Remember, I defined my requirement so that indisputable evidence of a miracle would exist that would be impossible to explain away.

Quote:

FM: No, there is no reason to believe in miracles. It's much too ephemeral to believe in.

Amie: I understand its just not a point of view I share...

As is your right. I just don't understand how you justify your belief to yourself.

Biff the unclean · 12-08-2002, 08:54 PM

Hello Amie. No, I don't think that people believe in God because of any innate "need to believe in something of a higher power." All the people I know who were raised in Atheist households (and that includes my own children and grand kids) have no such "need." Why would you care if there was a "higher power," and what does "higher power" even mean anyway?
The only people I've met who think that they have this bizarre compulsion are those who have had it constantly repeated to them from the cradle that they need it. Without being subjected by this intense indoctrination people are perfectly fine. It isn't something you were born with, it's inflicted on you.

Amie · 12-08-2002, 09:04 PM

Hi Family Man

Quote:

So how do we distinguish "real" miracles from the fake ones that come from people's misconceptions?

It is difficult since many miracles can not be proven. However I was referring to lourdes where diseases can be verified and then viewed again if they somehow miraculously heal...

some say Padre Pio's stigmata was miraculous...whats your take? self mutilation?

Quote:

Yes, isn't that the wonderful things about miracles, the fact that they depend on so many unknowns. Precisely why I don't find claims of the miraculous convincing

they don't really depend on unknows, they simply coexist with unknowns...

Quote:

After all, your belief is burdened with an extra-layer called the supernatural that we really don't know exists.

well I would not say "burdened" would be an appropriate term...

Quote:

I'm not sure why you think the miraculous explanation is the better one.

please show me where I said "I think the miraculous explanation is the better one".

I don't think that at all. its not a matter of being better, or right or wrong. it is a personal belief.

Quote:

But I haven't seen any claim for the miraculous there that would require the conclusion that the miracles happen there.

have you researched it at all? I am not being antagonistic, I am just curious..

Quote:

As is your right. I just don't understand how you justify your belief to yourself.

I believe in miracles. I believe in God. thats all the justification I need for myself.

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12-08-2002, 09:02 AM	#53
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	wow. Not only do you claim that coincidental football scores are miraculous, you also claim that scores that were almost coincidental, if they had just gone for a field goal, but actually weren't coincidental, are miraculous as well. You would think if God was actually omnipotent, he would be capable of actually making the score 33-3 instead of making it come close to 33-3 but not end up that way. You're really stretching. Ever think that maybe there are hundreds of football games, and the chances are pretty high that through random chance occasionally the scores would turn out to be coincidental in some fashion? And since you obviously attribute the miracles to God, why does he perform them? They have nothing to do with him, except for your 33-3 symbolic reference to the trinity, which is also of course the score that didn't actually happen. -B

12-08-2002, 11:50 AM	#55
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Now if I did see something really strange happen, an actual miracle....someone regrow a severed leg or come back from the dead after three days....why would I think it came from God? If I didn't already believe in God, which I don't, the sight of something really strange happening would have me thinking, "Gee, something really strange is happening." To believe in a God I would need there to be a God. Weird-arsed stuff happening doesn't imply that there was a God.

12-08-2002, 08:54 PM	#59
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Hello Amie. No, I don't think that people believe in God because of any innate "need to believe in something of a higher power." All the people I know who were raised in Atheist households (and that includes my own children and grand kids) have no such "need." Why would you care if there was a "higher power," and what does "higher power" even mean anyway? The only people I've met who think that they have this bizarre compulsion are those who have had it constantly repeated to them from the cradle that they need it. Without being subjected by this intense indoctrination people are perfectly fine. It isn't something you were born with, it's inflicted on you.

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