seebs

Hmm. The last 100 years during which, if memory serves, church membership has increased in the U.S.?

I would actually argue that it's working pretty well. Most people are trying harder to find the truth, and less content to have something handed to them without explanation.

I think this is an oversimplification. People kill each other for whatever reasons come to hand, and will invent new ones if necessary.

THE_LEGENDARY_HQB

Originally posted by Seebs:
"Look at it this way: Which people do you think are learning more, the people who are convinced that they have all the answers, or the people who are never quite sure, and keep thinking and studying?"
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Well, I agree with this statement, but it doesn't adress my OP.
Also, rember that Christianity, like many other world religions, has historically discouraged, often violently, the pursuit of"Truth"outside of itself. You cannot possibly argue that Christianity, either historically or Biblically, has ever allowed its adherents to consider the possibility of other ways to "The Truth", because, if "Truth" could be arrived at through other means, the sacrifice of Christ is rendered meaningless.


"If I believed for sure that I had answers, I might well stop looking - and thus stop learning."
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But Seebs, Christianity claims for itself absolute certainty of "The Truth"! Christ is "the " Truth" ! All other philosphies and religions are Satanic counterfeits. It absolutely does not claim to be simply one of many "Truths". See the difference?

Sometimes, Seebs, you seem to be somewhat "lukewarm" in your faith.
You are aware of what Jesus said about those who were not hot nor cold, but lukewarm, hmmmmmmmm?

He seems to have some sort of problem digesting them....

Stay gold,
HQB

seebs

I'd actually disagree with that last part. I'm a programmer, and it pleases me greatly to learn about computers. I believe that it is necessary to form a correct understanding of computers to make them do things.

However, I freely grant that people who have no clue at all can still *benefit* from computers.

Christianity makes claims about the truth which I believe to be true. However, this does not mean that people who are going the long way around are in trouble.

He assures me I'll be fine, and that I shouldn't worry.

Basically, it comes down to this: I believe these things to be true, but I also believe that the process of searching and trying to understand is crucial to healthy development. I know that many people come to the truth through long and roundabout processes. It is not my place to draw a line and say "you must be this tall to enter" on Heaven's gates; I think the Bible suggests strongly that, once you're on the road, you are saved by grace, even though *no one* travels the whole road in this life. We all continue to hold false beliefs, however trivial or irrelevant they may seem; what saves us is not utter accuracy of belief, but God's ability to bridge the gap between us and Him.

So... Let's say I meet a guy who seems to be searching for truth sincerely, but who is currently an atheist. Who am I to say that his search might not lead him to God eventually? I certainly needed to start from a position of disbelief to build a faith I could rely on; perhaps others do too.

As to what happens if he dies along the path, I don't know. The Bible says that he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness will be filled; this is good enough for me.

I often seem "lukewarm" to people. I have a fairly serene faith, by comparison to many. For whatever reason, I don't spend all my time struggling or worrying. I sometimes think that the people who are constantly stressing are missing the entire point of having *faith*.

I don't *know* what happens, but I have beliefs, and that's enough.

Amie

well said my friend. I feel the same way...

fando

I thnk you're on to something. U.S. citizens are definitely starting to do some honest soul searching for the 'truth' in cultural institutions that are known for indoctrinating truths.

It's just a successful marketing campaign, in a country known for mastering the art of washing the brain.

Dibble Helix

Hey Seebs, yours isn't the only continent in the world you know!

In Europe (well in Britain at least) church attendance has dramatically fallen over the last century.

BTW I think you write with an honesty that's refreshing. But, for the life of me, I can never figure out why intelligent people like you need to believe these fairy stories in order to make sense of life.


Regards - The Dibster.

Asha'man

Hi Seebs,

As a fellow programmer, I also enjoy learning about computers. However, I know for a fact that they exist (due to direct physical contact, etc). I can also verify the accuracy of my learning by testing it, by writing a program and seeing how it runs.

I have virtually no interest in learning how to program a holodeck, because they don’t exist. Even if I desperately wanted to learn how, I would be working with nothing but speculation and fantasy, because holodecks don’t exit. Even if I had mastered holodeck programming, I would be utterly unable to verify my skill by running a program.

Don’t you think God would be better served if he was in the category of a computer rather than a holodeck? Wouldn’t the search for knowledge be easier if you at least knew you were learning about something real and not imagined?

So your objection about searching for the truth seems extremely weak to me. If God would demonstrate simply that he exists, in a clear and unambiguous manner, only then could the search for the truth begin. Since he apparently insists on remaining utterly hidden, he might as well not exist, just like the holodeck.

Hairi

I think generally wether people believe or not in god depends on the individual life experience.
Having a philosophical debate will never usually convert a theist into atheist or vice versa.

A thiest will have a hard time getting their point across to an athiest who will generally dismiss them as delussions.

An athiest will have the same problem against a thiest who might have experienced certain events in their life that he believes was god intervention in some form.

The concept and believe of God is very personal.
If god were to show himself there wouldn't be any religion.
Religion requires faith. If it's a tangible idea like computer programming learning about him wouldn't require faith.
Thats why religion isn't a science.

There are a lot of smart people that believes in God.
Being smart and rational doesn't automatically exempt the person from believing in a certain religion. It depends on the person philosophy and principles.

If you look closely upon the world you'll be shocked of its stupidity and cruelty . If you look closer you might realize that there is order.

beastmaster

The concept and believe of God is very personal.

Which is strong circumstantial evidence that God does not exist.

If god were to show himself there wouldn't be any religion.

To the contrary, everybody would be religious. I certainly would be.

Religion requires faith. If it's a tangible idea like computer programming learning about him wouldn't require faith.

If God revealed himself, we would no longer need faith in God's existence, but we would still need faith in His providence/beneficience. The latter kind of faith is more important.

kctan

I certainly would not. If the so called god is of this world, he/she/it would be just another creature. If he/she/it is out of this world, then alien.