Susheel

Hinduwoman,
Essentially the problemm is that the uppercastes fell that they have to patronise the lower castes. So imposing upper caste culture upon the lower castes is a form of patronising. The idea is to allow the lower castes the freedom to make their own choices. I have come across many 'social service' organisations for the upliftment of the lower castes which essentially tell them 'your cultuires and traditions are defective...we shall give you the correct cultures and you must follow it'. In my personal experience, the height was a Vivekananda Kendra in rural Northern Karnataka, close to the MP border which was instructing Tribals on how to live in harmony with nature...how audacious is that?

Roshan,
I would like the citation for the full source. I have a background in linguistics as part of my post graduate studies long ago, but I have access to quite a few leading linguists at the university here. Personally, I have problems with a marine archaeologist dabbling with linguistics. I think the expertise in the two fields are quite different. The methodology he uses seems suspect. I presume he has published on this. So the reference to the publication would be useful. By the way wasn't he the person who brought to light the 'oldest' civilization in the world off the coast of Gujarat?

roshan

if you read hid credentials again - youll see that he is not just a marine archaologist - thats just one of his accomplishments.

his methods are A LOT more objective than those being used by other scientists.

most others look at the harappan signs, and then GUESS what animal or nature thing they symbolize. then, if it looks like a dog to them, for example, they will take the first letter of the word dog from one of the dravidian languages, and they will equate that with the sign. of course, they assume that the signs are hieroglyphics, and they also assume that the words are dravidian. raos method does not assume that the writings are hieroglyphics, and he does not assume what language they are in.

you can pick up and read his books if you want.

Virtual Kshatriya

Who is a Hindu?

Any one who accepts pluralism as a way of humanity and rejects and opposes the expansionism of absolutist monocultures of the mind is a Hindu. Swami Vivekananda said:" One-sidedness is the bane of the world. The more sides you develop, the more varied will be your
enjoyment of the universe." Unlike prophetic religions that base their lwas on the fear of the Lord. Sankara says "From fearlessness comes the self-liberation" (Nirbhayatve Jeevan Mukthi). Real morality comes from freedom not fear. Hinduism accepts atheism as a valid spiritual path. Take the case of Charvaka philosophy. Though one finds its condemnation in other schools of philosophy just as you
find in Charvaka school condemnation of other philosophies, Artha Sashstra ordains the study of
Lokyata (Materialism) as an important necessary branch of philosophy. So Hinduism is about freedom
-freedom of the individual and protecting that freedom.

Hindus and Caste system:

Caste is a complicated subject. The Western perception is that Brahmins at the top of a human pyramid exploiting all others. Except in Kerala where Brahmins were allowed to hold land nowhere Brahmins have been as a class extremely rich. In fact, more often than not they were targetted specifically by invaders. It was under British that Brahmins had a meteorite rise with gaining jobs in bureaucracy. Yet they were foremost in fighting for freedom and caste-reforms. Yet 'Brahminism' is blamed for all evils. One seldom understands the fact that the so-called Brahminism itself is not that Brahminical. Gayatri - the important mantra in Vedas which all Brahmins are bound to recite three times a day was perceived by Vishawamitra a non-Brahmin who challenged the authority of Brahminical seer Vashihta. Ramayan has as its villain
a Brahmin - Ravana. In Mahabharath we see Brahmins living in such a socially low life that teh Brahmin teacher Drona's son is fed with dog's milk by other children. Later in the battle field Pandava hero Bhima scolds Drona - insultingly by referring to the fact that he was a Brahmin.
So the general impression that caste-system is the result of a priest craft is wrong. Almost like but more well knit than trade guilds - communities of Jatis have been prospering through community bonding in India even now in recent times. The best example is the Nadar community in Tamil Nadu.Just two hundred years ago the so-called upper castes banned these people from entering the streets or
wearing the upper garment before the 'high' castes and banned their entry into the temples. In the late eighteenth century a poet-philosopher born among them declared him as an incarnation of Vishnu and started fighting for their rights. Today Nadars are a thriving community conomically well and communally well knit. They have become 'caste Hindus ' within a century. They control a national bank and earn annually 400
crore Ruppees in cracker industry which also gains 40 crore ruppees for India in foreign exports. They run not only engineering colleges and schools and charity hospitals but also control amny trustee boards of temples which mean today many Brahmins are employed by them. And many educated Nadar boys and girls marry outside their own jati (caste) without much ado. had they reamined in their original conditions they would
have been called Dalits. The interesting twist comes from the fact that Nadars were originally martial clans of Tamils and thus consider themselves as Kshatriyas. But which Pandya and Chola control of south Tamil Nadu weakened and
with the raise of Cheras their social space was taken up by Nayars(another Kshatriya clan of Cheras) and the Nadars got pushed into the social space of Dalits.
There are also Dalit jatis created by British. In Thirunelveli district which was one of the earliest districts in India to come under the British rule, a Dalit caste exists - Devendra Kula Vellalar. These people recently shot into fame when violence broke out in one of their protest marches and police resorted to firing killing many of them. Even BBC had a
documentary feature on these events. Now these people were again a prominent Kshatriya clan. They were well known for their hostility to British and evangelical missionaries. Under the local king (belonging to Devar jati of Kshatriyas)
they fought against the British and lost. They as a caste were stripped off their land holding and soon they became landless labourers. Thus a Dalit caste has been made within two to three centuries by British.
Often it has been argued that Hindus got converted to Islam because of caste. Even Dr. Ambedkar a very scholarly Dalit leader had rejected this as a historical cause. From Arabia to India when Islam swept across populations they all lost their older religions to Islam. These were all casteless societies. But in India Islam has been persecuting people
for centuries yet with little success. The reason is that caste has acted as a barrier to conversions. Even sometimes when a king
converted to Islam, his people would not as communities were so well knit they almost formed a separate unit and in the matters
of religion were quite iundependent of the king.
Nevertheless in the modern context caste is more a inhumane liability than an asset and has to go. And this has to be done through making disadvantaged communities socio-economically better. Communities as mentioned earlier are almost independent units with strong affinities of the members. One cannot abolish caste overnight. It will result in hypocracy and vote bank politics. Rather community assets have to be used positively for socio-economic empowerment and after it reaches the threshhold level
changes will automatically take place. This has been true of Elzhavas in Keralas, Nadars , Chettiars in Tamil Nadu and I am quite sure
innumerable other castes in India.

Sati, Women and Hindus

Sati was never as wide spread as it has been made out by propaganda. Women used to burn themselves to save their honour from alien invaders. Or when a woman looses her husband she might do out of sheer sorrow. Rani Durga Devi was a widow . Rani of Jhansi was a widow. Agalya bai was a widow. Sarada devi was a widow. Meera bai was a widow.
Rani Mangamma was a widow.Many great Indian women achievers were widows when they achieved fame - when we are told that Sati was prelevant.
So what exactly are the real facts?

Ananda Kentish Coomaraswamy - who was the curator of Indian art in Boston museum says :
"It is true that in artistocractic circles Sati became to some degree a social convention and pressure was put on unwilling individuals ."
Nowhere it has been proved that Brahmins or religious authorities compelled women to become Sati. Usually property disputes played a role in many of these 'aristocratic satis' rather than any religious fanaticism. However there exist recorded events where Brahmins counselled a woman determined to commit Sati not to do it. Muhammed Riza Naui a poet in emperor Akbar the Great's
court vividly explains how a young girl whose husband was killed on the day of marriage was determined to commit sati. A counsel of Brahmins persuaded her not to commit Sati. Then Akbar himself intervened and offered her money. She rejected all these. Sir Frederick Halliday records almost a similar incident. So does R. hartle Kennedy a separate incident where men persuaded the would be Sati 'against doing this'. Tamil literarture also has recorded Brahmins trying to dissuade women from becoming Satis. However when a woman does commit Sati - she becomes a sort of village goddess. Also could be found Sati stones commemorating these
events. But clearly the trend is like Japanese honour suicides - rare volunatry and also in some circles compelled. So the demand of banning of Sati itself came from high caste Hindus like Raja Ram Mohan rai though as with any reforms a vested
interest group should have opposed it. In any event to say that burning a woman is an important tenet of Hinduism is nonsense to say the least.

krazytamak

way back when, hindus originally used hallucinogenic drugs in order to gain their trips, um I mean divine insights. Two of the most famous Hindu drugs are soma (shroom like effects) and bhang (liquid marijuana). Now that's my kind of religion. Too bad most Hindus today have lost their roots. Could have turned the land of spices into a land of pot, all in the name of religion of course.

hinduwoman

Susheel, I do not know whether the motive is patronising. What I am saying is that for centuries the Brahmins have monopolized Sanskrit and now they are teaching it to lower castes: this surely is one step to democritzation. No one is depriving the lower castes of their freedom, unless they are being coerced in some way. They are free to accept or reject upper caste culture.

hinduwoman

Bhang is still used. But no one knows what Soma is; which explians why divine insights are no more forthcoming.

hinduwoman

If anyone is interested, here is a website with brief info about the Ramtemple dispute:

<a href="http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/rjm/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.hvk.org/specialrepo/rjm/index.html</a>

Seeker196

Where can I get some of this soma stuff?

If it's good enough for the Pandavas, it's good enough for me.