Vorkosigan

Funny Durant doesn't buy them. Maybe he never heard of a fire which burned for a thousand years going out when Krishna was born, from other than the Krishna's. He apparently feels the Roman records of persecutions give sufficient non-Christian credence to their widespread existence. The above stories seemed to me to have obvious inventions and then I do not recall any of them offering to impute righteousness to anybody, so I gave Jesus an extra "unique" point, I admit.

ROTFL. ROman records show Christianity existed. They do not demonstrate that Jesus ever existed.

The Jesus tales seem to me to be obvious inventions.

"Righteousness" is not an argument for anything.

Sojourner553

No attack meant by that NOGO - -

It's just I don't read the posts because they are soo long -- and seems to be only interpretations or games with words.

The Bible has so many authors and interpretations -- one can prove almost anything they want to. I think that it one of its strengths -- because both ultra-conservatives AND ultra-liberals are both convinced Jesus is "one of them."

Hey that makes a good question. So is Jesus a card carrying Republican or a Democrat on SOCIAL politics?


Sojourner

Sojourner553

Never mind.

I decided to take the time to answer --SEE NEXT POST

since you won't read my link to pick out the answer yourself. Sigh.

Sojourner

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

OK -- Since you guys won't read the links--

Here goes. Hope you don't mind I am giving MORE than three examples for Mithra.

(1)Mithra was held as the son of the Ahura-Mazda, the god of light. In the
philosophical language of his times, he was sometimes referred to as the
Logos that emanated from God, and he who thus shared in His omnipotence.
(Franz Cumont, THE MYSTERIES OF MITHRA, Dover Publications, 1956 p. 140).


The struggle between good and evil on earth was seen in dualistic terms
as the spillover of a powerful divine battle between the Supreme Good
God and the Prince of Darkness. Mithra was the creator, to whom had been given the task of maintaining order in the universe. (Ibid) He was the mediator between the unapproachable goodness in the universe in the highest spheres above, and the human race that suffered and struggled on the earth below.

(2) In some accounts, his birth was witnessed by shepherds, who offered the divine infant the fruits of their harvest--and by magii who brought him gifts.

(3)Mithra performed miracles during his stay on earth--such as healing the sick, casting out devils, and raising the dead.

(4) When he believed he had accomplished his mission on earth, he held a Last Supper with some of his closest disciples.

[Note: Mithra's followers performed a rite of the Last Supper, with a sacred meal comprised of cakes and a cup of water or wine. Initiates were sometimes depicted in animal masks. (This may go back to when gods were represented under the forms of animals--and initiates believed that in taking the name and form of his god, that he was identifying with him. (1)Indeed the famous statesman Cicero, in a speech given around 40 years before Jesus' birth, denounced the pagan rite of the sacrament of substantiation,
decrying, "How can a man be so stupid as to imagine that which he eats to be a God?"


Scholars have noted similarities in the belief of transubstantiation (ie the belief that consumption of consecrated bread and wine/water is physically transformed into the flesh and blood of their god) with earlier pagan rites
performed before the birth of Jesus. Ceres, the Greek goddess of corn, gave her flesh to eat, and Bacchus, the god of wine, gave blood to drink to their adherents. In Egypt, priests would consecrate cakes which were supposed to
become the flesh of Osiris. (Encyclopedia Of Religions, Vol. 2, p. 76)]

(5) After being entombed for three days, Mithra ascended back to heaven.

(6) The followers of Mithra faithfully awaited for his second coming to Earth, at which time it was believed, he would engage in a ferocious
battle with the evil devil-god, Ahriman. After his victory, the world would be destroyed, all humanity would be judged, and the "chosen" people would be led across a burning body of water into a new immortal life.


(7)Mithra's birthday was the winter solstace -- ie December 25th.

(8) Mithra's followers worshiped on Sunday.

So my quiz to you:

(1) Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus' birthday was December 25th????


(2) Where in the New Testament is authority given by EITHER Jesus or the disciples to change the day of Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?

Not to mention that God clearly commands humans to REST on the seventh day -- ie Saturday. In the Old Testament there are strict laws -- some punishable by death -- for not following the Sabbath for one's day of worship and rest!

That is why the Seventh Day Adventists worship on Saturday and view Christmas as a pagan holiday. Other Protestant religions also viewed Christmas as a pagan holiday and Christmas was not celebrated in the White House during the times of Washington and Jefferson.

Our point is that the pagan influence was also within the Bible too -- as the above similarities would show. Mithra is centuries older than Christianity.

Sojourner

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Sojourner553

I don't want to misrepresent myself. I was VERY religious up into my teens. A number of episodes set me on a quest to read up on the history of religion to determine what it was all about.

It was based on my readings that "I" (I realize not you or others) became convinced that all conventional religion is based on superstition. Now I still strongly respect deism (belief in a distant god who built the world like a clock and then set it running off on its own - -without holy texts or prophets.) And you are correct to note this is the direction I am tugging you towards. Many deists still view Jesus symbolically in association with God

I can give you a large list why I am not a believer. This is a VERY short list by the way. (I have an expanded list I could dig out.)

*I can point to you discrepancies within the Bible itself, verses where the Bible clearly are touting demons and other superstition.

*I can show you how even the gospel writers disagreed among themselves re: important doctrines on the nature of Jesus.

*I can show you how most of the myths and concepts of Christianity are similar and were probably influenced by that of their of pagan neighbors.

*I can show you how CONSERVATIVE religious groups have opposed science, democracy, and humanity throughout history -- including "civilized" laws we take for granted today.

*I can take you through history and show you that too often the greatest evil is done in the name of religion (ie because "obedience" to God is held to be of "HIGHER" importance that treating our fellow man humanely.)

* And what bothered me the most (still does) is how a good person often cannot tell the difference between a good and bad religious leader, despite their prayers and them being convinced they "feel" God's spirit directing them.

Why else are there so many sects? Why else can't people even AGREE on what is "God's Will." One would think the test would be in obeying "God's Will" -- well most groups can't even agree what that is -- but insist they personally know it.


But I do respect people who mean well and do their best. I agree with you there are some atheists here who act intolerant at the slightest difference. (Don't think they just attack Christians... I've taken a few of them on at times when i think THEY are the ones acting dogmatic! I still refuse to talk to Intensity!)


Every religion has their holy verses. You probably only believe your religion because that is the one you grew up in -- ie you are skeptical of the SAME miracles claimed by OTHER religions than your own.

I saw the stats on this once --something like 95-8% of people belong to the same major religion as their parents.

That means Muslims believe THEIR holy texts, Jews theirs, Christians theirs and so on.

If you are a good person, fine. Good people have good Gods. The problem is that bad people always see God as being "just like them".

Sojourner

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Radorth

Please give links to the three contemporary accounts I asked for. Oh wait, there aren't any. What do you mean "in some accounts"? Which is the oldest and how old is it? What "methodology" are you using here?

Hopefully you can prove the veracity and age of all these accounts, otherwise the comparison is useless as I think has already been pointed out. OK, how about 2 accounts written within 100 years of eachother containg all of the above? Can you do that? Other religions have a bad habit of copying Christianity, particularly Islam, so I wouldn't be surprised if the accounts were created over a 2000 year span from 1400 BC when this "sun god" supposedly existed.

Anyway you've definitely proved Mithra is a mith.

Radorth

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Radorth ]</p>

Peter Kirby

Radorth writes: Hopefully you can prove the veracity and age of all these accounts, otherwise the comparison is useless as I think has already been pointed out.

Where have you proven the veracity and age of all the New Testament accounts?

best,
Peter Kirby

Sojourner553

Tsk, tsk Radorth,

Did you forget about this part:

Answer: This came from Mithraism. It WASN'T THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

Why not show me where I am wrong and there is BIBILICAL authority for this! I'll await seeing your verses...

Cute -- I will assume "mith" is a pun.

We agree Mithra is a myth. But Mithraism is older than Christianity. Shouldn't it be the younger religion that is copying the older one... ie why assume Mithra is the ONLY myth?

Sojourner


PS Here is another link: You can read the reference books on the list if you are REALLY interested in the source documents:

<a href="http://www.atheist-community.org/mithra.htm" target="_blank">http://www.atheist-community.org/mithra.htm</a>

(although I suspect you are not really interested...)

[ September 24, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

Answerer

Ha, pot calling the kettle black. Isn't christinity a religion that is infamous for its duplication of the Judaism and Zoroastrianism's belief and thoughts while accusing others of 'doing what they, themselves, had done'.

NOGO

"Of course after the beating you took on the "contadictions" poll,"

Fiction! Like so many things that you believe.

"giving us 3 Easter show-stoppers"

I only need one. John and Matthew tell two totally different stories. For you, Radorth, nothing is a show-stopper.

Here are the two stories. Which one of these two stories (if any) actually happened ???

Matthew 28
1. Began to down, MaryM came to the grave.
2. severe earthquake
3. an angel rolles away the stone
4. Angel says "He is not here, for He has risen,
5. And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples.
6. Jesus met them and greeted them.

John 20
1. MaryM came to the tomb, it was still dark, and the stone had already been taken away.
2 So she ran back and met Peter and John, and said to them, "They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him."
3 So Peter and John went to the tomb.
4. They saw that the tomb was empty
5 Peter and John return home but MaryM remained outside the tomb weeping;
6. MaryM sees two angels inside the tomb.
7. they say to her, "why are you weeping?"
8. MaryM still thinks that someone has taken away the body.
9. She sees Jesus, she thinks it's the gardener.
10. MaryM recognizes Jesus.
11. MaryM goes to tell the disciples