Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Kantian · 08-07-2002, 12:30 PM

Whether the assumption that i am a Kantist is justified, that would depend on how you define the synthetic a priori, now, wouldn't it, WJ?

WJ · 08-07-2002, 01:08 PM

Good one but, perhaps mere reading is not believing afterall, isn't that right Mr. Kant

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 08-07-2002, 04:28 PM

thomas Metcalf,

Quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Metcalf:


I'm not talking about 80-90% of people in the world. I'm talking about professional apologists. Read some philosophy journals if you want an idea of what defense they use, or you can just save time and accept that they depend on UPD.

Plenty of professional apologists see a problem with evil, and in my experience, none of them use anything other than the free will defense and UPD anymore.

Are you a theist? How do you explain evil? Or do you?

I am well aware of the defenses apologists use.

However, you are incorrect. No apologist sees a theological problem with evil. If they did...they would not be an apologist.

First, you must support your assertion that evil is a problem.

How is evil a problem?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 08-07-2002, 04:37 PM

Kant, Jobar and Vorkosigan

Quote:

Originally posted by Immanuel Kant:
Hello!

Before i dismiss this fallacious argument, do you have evidence to back up that guess? I hope you do know what an argumentum ad populum is.

<a href="http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html" target="_blank">Look here</a>

80%-90% of the world has some form of God belief therefore 80%-90% of the world does not think that evil and God are mutually exclusive. Atheists, not suprisingly, are the only ones that do think there is a problem.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

One-eyed Jack · 08-07-2002, 05:05 PM

SOMMS, you write: "80%-90% of the world has some form of God belief therefore 80%-90% of the world does not think that evil and God are mutually exclusive. Atheists, not suprisingly, are the only ones that do think there is a problem."

Let me restate that: 80%-90% of the people in the world hold beliefs which are internally inconsistent and contradictory. Rationalists, not surprisingly, think this is quite irrational. Rationalists tend therefore to be intrigued and amused by the mental contortions necessary to hold these irrational beliefs.

Does that clarify the matter for you?

But actually, you vastly overstate the percentages: the Problem of Evil is only relevant in theologies which posit an omnipotent and eternal Creator who is also benevolent toward mankind. It's not much of a problem in Buddhist theology, for instance. I'm not sure about Hinduism. Certainly so-called pantheistic and animistic belief systems have no problem with evil.

I must also point out that many, many Christian theologians have written reams of material on theodicy. To say that it's a problem only for atheists is an obvious lie.

Kantian · 08-07-2002, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:80%-90% of the world has some form of God belief

That's a quite quick-trigger hasty stereotyping thing you've got there, and a terrible one, Satan, as well as a failure to recognize the inherent atheism of Buddhism. FWIW, 360 million Buddhists do not have "some form of God belief." Other religions do not posit an omnipotent creator with a schizoid personality, nor do they construct elaborate theodicies in order to explain away the obvious problem of evil you seem to intent on sweeping under the rug out of sight.

Quote:

therefore 80%-90% of the world does not think that evil and God are mutually exclusive. Atheists, not suprisingly, are the only ones that do think there is a problem.

False. Your argument, besides being originally an argumentum ad populum, is now a non-sequitur. That a great percentage of the population hold some form of "God belief" does not support the claim that they think evil and God are compatible. It does not even follow! I strongly suggest you to read any book on Theodicy (and there are quite a lot of them!

) and re-examine your fallacious statements.

Just because you chose to ignore the problem of evil (by refusing to recognize that natural disasters cause extreme suffering, that the existence of evil and the concepts of both omnibenevolence and omnipotence are contradictory) does not mean everybody else with a "god belief" doesn't either. Are you projecting your convictions upon others in the same camp?

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Immanuel Kant ]

Kantian · 08-07-2002, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by WJ: Good one but, perhaps mere reading is not believing afterall, isn't that right Mr. Kant

Pretty much- no such thing as a passive experience/knowledge. That would be a double-edged sword that implies existential angst, that one is ultimately responsible for his understanding of whatever material he reads, true?

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 08-07-2002, 08:07 PM

Jack,

Quote:

Originally posted by One-eyed Jack:

Let me restate that: 80%-90% of the people in the world hold beliefs which are internally inconsistent and contradictory.

Just so we are clear on this...

You are claiming that 80%-90% of the people in the world are...*crazy* AND that you are not.

THAT is crazy.

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Devilnaut · 08-07-2002, 08:35 PM

100% of the world once believed the earth to be flat. I guess we live in a crazy world.

SOMMS, you seem surprised. It is no secret that atheists feel that the theist's position is irrational and indefensible, which is the position that 80% of the world holds.

I also hope you realize that the great majority of people do not think critically about many of their beliefs, especially with regards to religion.

ps: nice strawman

[ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]

Thomas Metcalf · 08-07-2002, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas:
thomas Metcalf,

I am well aware of the defenses apologists use.

However, you are incorrect. No apologist sees a theological problem with evil. If they did...they would not be an apologist.

You lie. Or you have rather a strange definition of "apologist." Name some professional apologists for me, if you'd be so kind. Alvin Platinga and Richard Swinburne come to mind immediately, and both of them have spent considerable time trying to deal with the problem of evil. Plantinga himself actually calls it by that name, and I'm sure Swinburne did too.

Quote:

First, you must support your assertion that evil is a problem.

How is evil a problem?

If gratuitous evil exists, God does not exist. Now, there is a question about whether gratuitous evil exists. There is reason to think it does, so this presents a problem for theism.

You have still failed to answer my questions that I left for you on my previous reply. Please answer them.

08-07-2002, 08:35 PM	#29
Devilnaut Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Posts: 374	100% of the world once believed the earth to be flat. I guess we live in a crazy world. SOMMS, you seem surprised. It is no secret that atheists feel that the theist's position is irrational and indefensible, which is the position that 80% of the world holds. I also hope you realize that the great majority of people do not think critically about many of their beliefs, especially with regards to religion. ps: nice strawman [ August 07, 2002: Message edited by: Devilnaut ]</p>

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08-07-2002, 12:30 PM	#21
Kantian Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Konigsberg Posts: 238	Whether the assumption that i am a Kantist is justified, that would depend on how you define the synthetic a priori, now, wouldn't it, WJ?

08-07-2002, 01:08 PM	#22
WJ Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 812	Good one but, perhaps mere reading is not believing afterall, isn't that right Mr. Kant

08-07-2002, 05:05 PM	#25
One-eyed Jack Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 46	SOMMS, you write: "80%-90% of the world has some form of God belief therefore 80%-90% of the world does not think that evil and God are mutually exclusive. Atheists, not suprisingly, are the only ones that do think there is a problem." Let me restate that: 80%-90% of the people in the world hold beliefs which are internally inconsistent and contradictory. Rationalists, not surprisingly, think this is quite irrational. Rationalists tend therefore to be intrigued and amused by the mental contortions necessary to hold these irrational beliefs. Does that clarify the matter for you? But actually, you vastly overstate the percentages: the Problem of Evil is only relevant in theologies which posit an omnipotent and eternal Creator who is also benevolent toward mankind. It's not much of a problem in Buddhist theology, for instance. I'm not sure about Hinduism. Certainly so-called pantheistic and animistic belief systems have no problem with evil. I must also point out that many, many Christian theologians have written reams of material on theodicy. To say that it's a problem only for atheists is an obvious lie.

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