Sauron

It amazes me that you know so little of Mideast history.

Are you also unaware that Jordan signed a peace treaty with Israel as a result of Oslo? Yet did not receive the West Bank back from Israel?

Sauron

You think so? Fine. List them.

My bet is you don't have a clue what you're talking about, and when asked to prove your position, you'll do whatever you can to ignore my post.

Yawn. More attempts at painting with a broad brush.

From what I have seen, the Israelis break the cease-fires by trying to send assassins in to Arab villages.

Sauron

A really bad lie, Loren.
Israel took land in 1948. They took all the land that the UN allotted to the Palestinian state.

Then they took land again in 1967.

And people like Begin, Netanyahu and Sharon (plus the ultra-orthodox groups) are trying to take more land now, by planting illegal settlements on the West Bank.


Incorrect. The Israelis are at primary fault here. I won't guess the percentage, since that's rather silly. But the majority of the problem is due to Israel. The ultra-orthodox and rightists in Israel have never given up their desire to incorporate the West BAnk into Israel; in fact, they won't even refer to that area as the "West Bank". Instead, they prefer to call it "Judea and Samaria", because they believe that by doing so, it strengthens their claim to the land.

Sauron

1. It's good to see that you contradict Corwin.

2. Of course the opposition hasn't sworn off violence. Israel shows no sign of releasing its stranglehold, or of relinquishing stolen property.

Goose/gander. Get used to it.

No, they haven't. Or more precisely, they've honored certain ones, when it was in their interest. The rest they violate.

Actually, the terrorists shoot because Israel tries to violate the truce through some backdoor method. Israel says one thing publicly, and does another thing privately, out of sight (or so they hope).

Gurdur

Since both these statements also hold true for the Palestinians, one wonders where the point is at times.

Oh well, I should just let the competing idealizations go on unimpeded, no ?

Gurdur

*cough*
Jordan has renounced all claims to the West Bank.

Probably just as well, seeing their problems with the East Bank (Black September and all).

Sauron

Incorrect.

What Jordan said was that the West Bank belonged to the Palestinian people and their representatives.

Which means that Israel is controlling a piece of territory from a people that never declared war on Israel.


I think Jordan is being realistic. If I were the king of Jordan, I think I would have made the same choice, to be honest with you.

Darwin26

well Loren, if it's any consolation the hired killer of Rachel Corrie, was cleared of wrong doing by an Isreali Military panel today.

But for what its worth your American zionist leader was trounced it a straw poll vote held yesterday... and zionists everywhere along with Lieberman can watch their distructive forces evaporate .

It's not just about Rachel...it's about the inhuman treatment zionists have heaped on the Palestinians ...

Gurdur

I must write out the following sentence 1000 times:
I must not get involved in these things


Now just how does that make me incorrect ?
I mean, I said Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank.
You said, Jordan said the West Bank now belonged to the Palestinians, and no longer to the Jordanians.
Now how does this make me incorrect ?
Actually, not completely correct.
Strife on the West Bank certainly existed before 1967, even before 1948.
IIRC, one of the more famous and energetic Palestinian village alliance leaders came from the West Bank.

The people themselves had largely declared war; plus they were the victims of two things:

1) Arab nation power politics
2) Israel's search for security ( shorter and more defensible borders, water etc.)

Granted, a Palestinian state --- as I've often said --- must come into being; also, Israel's security must be meaningfully guaranteed ---- otherwise the conflict simply drags on and on and on.........

heh, I agree.
BTW, it was recently revealed that King Hussein asked for Israeli help in case the then-threatening Syrians invaded Jordan in supoort of the Palestinian uprising on the East Bank in September, 1972 (or was that 1971 ? Ah well, I'm forgetful. I must toddle off to do more threads, So far; I have one interesting thread in Elsewhere where I managed to introduce flourescent fish, and I'm interested in the response).

Gurdur

Lesseee, didn't I do this one before in the thread ?
Oh yes.
Zionism is simply Jewish nationalism.
It comes in many shapes and forms, often conflicting.
Every ethnic cultural group has the right to self-determination and moderate nationalism.

Maybe you can criticise certain actions of the Israeli army without the wholesale denounciation of Zionists ?
hmmmm ??