Stephen T-B

Quid pro quo?
Something given in return for a service rendered. That' what my Le Mot Juste, A Dictionary of Foreign and Classical Words and Phrases says, anyway.

HelenM

Thanks

So, are you saying this? You would object to me thinking "I did something kind for you so you ought to believe what I tell you!"

Personally I see myself as able to share information and that that's it. I might hope that you would do me the courtesy of listening. At least until you realized what I was going to say and that you'd heard it all before - and/or been there, done that already...

But it would make no sense to me to expect you to believe something in return for me being nice to you

Most Christians believe there is at least some part of converting other people which is outside their control, which has to do with God making the other person receptive to the message and able to believe it.

So if they remember that, they can't really expect the other person to believe 'on cue'.

As for proselytizing, conservative Christians are heavily encouraged to do it to save others from hell...as I expect you know. Well, as I just wrote, it's not that they do this by themselves; it can only happen if God also draws the person to Himself. Their part is to share the gospel and then leave the results with God.

love
Helen

[ August 01, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Bree

And may the day come that theists do not bait non-theists into ridiculous and flame-like arguments .

Stephen T-B

Helen wrote: “Personally I see myself as able to share information and that that's it. I might hope that you would do me the courtesy of listening. At least until you realised what I was going to say and that you'd heard it all before - and/or been there, done that already...”
It’s that “do me the courtesy of listening,” which - as we Yorkshire folk say - “sticks in the craw.”
I would be pleased to do the courtesy of listening to you if we were having a discussion over dinner; I’d be less pleased if we were to meet at the coffee machine in my office and you began to tell me why I should give my life to Jesus; I would be a great deal less pleased if you were to stop me in the city centre and begin to lecture me on why I should believe in Jesus (“you” in this context doesn’t mean you as a specific individual) and I would be disgusted if, when you had taken me off the street and fed me and provided me with a bed, you said: “Now I’m going to tell you about Jesus.”
The ideal scenario is this: the Christian performs an act of kindness, and the recipient of it is so struck by the quality of the Christian’s generosity of spirit and integrity that he resolves to make the Christian a model for his own life.
One might have thought that if anyone were able to have this influence, it would be those who have devoted their lives to the service of Christ, such as monks and nuns. Yet it is these very people who set up charitable institutions which are based on the principal: “We give: you pray.”

HelenM

Actually, that would only be the ideal scenario from the Christian's point of view if, making the Christian the model for the recipient's life includes a desire to embrace the beliefs of the Christian as well as emulating their behavior.

Since from the conservative Christian point of view, only a change in belief is guaranteed to save the recipient from hell. Since it's not behavior but beliefs that get you into heaven or not - according to what conservative Christians believe.

Anyway I take your point about people doing things for you with a 'condition' attached. I wouldn't like that either. I don't think I intended to imply that you ought to listen to me because I did the good deed so much as, I think it's polite to listen anyway...or maybe I was thinking perhaps I might have earned your respect and so you'd listen - something like that. Not that I was 'demanding' you listen as just recompense for me putting myself out on your behalf That sounds way too manipulative to me!

love
Helen

[ August 02, 2002: Message edited by: HelenSL ]</p>

Starboy

Funny, I hear this often from Christians. They owe me 160k$. I've never had a problem with an atheist.

Starboy

[ August 03, 2002: Message edited by: Starboy ]</p>

Stephen T-B

I’ve got it at last: for a Christian, belief is all important?
But didn’t Christ emphasise conduct AND belief?
I suppose the bit I’ve never understood, Helen, is the importance attached to each.
Is it, for instance (in terms of the fate of our everlasting souls) better to believe and behave badly, or not to believe and behave well?
(I don’t intend to be facetious; I have appreciated your answers and your honesty and because of them my ignorance, I think, is less than it was.)

HelenM

Stephen

This is what conservative i.e. Bible-believing Christians believe:

It's only belief that God will accept as grounds for entering heaven. Because anyone trying to get in based on conduct would have to be perfect and no-one is. But to someone who believes, God 'credits Jesus' perfection to their account' as it were.

However, God does care about conduct and Christians will be rewarded or not based on it, now or in the future, even though Christians who don't behave well won't be kicked out of heaven altogether.

Maybe you know gospel means 'good news'. Christians today consider it 'good news' that no-one has to earn their way to heaven - that God has opened heaven, as it were, to anyone who believes.

But also, you can't earn your way there and no-one who tries will get in that way.

I know Jesus talked a lot about conduct. That shows how much conduct matters to God.

Here are a couple of FAQs from the church I used to go to until I switched because of moving:

<a href="http://www.moodychurch.org/information/faqs.html#5" target="_blank">no 5 and 6</a> are somewhat relevant to your question about what conservative Christians believe matters, perhaps.

There are many Bible verses Christians draw on to show why they believe what they do (of course). You won't agree with them if you a) interpret the verses differently b) don't see the Bible as a reliable source of 'truth'. That's really up to you

Can I ask you a question? When you were a Christian (I think you said you were), was this not what the Christians you knew believed? Did they believe that 'being a good person' was the way to heaven (hopefully) rather than - as Protestants sometimes say "grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ" i.e. salvation (eternal life, heaven, being reconciled with God now) is a gift (the grace part) given to those who believe (the faith part) and believe is all that's required to get it (the alone part).

love
Helen

Stephen T-B

I think, Helen, I'll give you that synopsis of the story of how I went from belief to unbelief.
It'd explain a lot.
I don't quite know how to get it to you (it's about 7,000 words)

HelenM

If it's written out in word you could mail it to me as an attachment. My e-mail is in my profile.

Or you could convert it to text and e-mail it as an attachment.

I am very interested to read it. I'd know much better where you're 'coming from' then...

love
Helen