Godless Wonder

Perhaps I am misreading this.

First, I'm about as skeptical as they come, 2nd, I'm presuming the the concept of "Chi" is just an example, and you mean these layers to apply to any belief or phenomenon, X, of which you are skeptical.

Given that, when X "is shown beyond all reasonable doubt" to be true, (and here I assume a scientific definition of "reasonable doubt", not a U.S. legal definition) then I am not sure what you mean by the response: "So what?"

If by "so what" you mean "ok, so what, we now have a verified phenomenon which is lacking a scientific explanation and which needs to be investigated." (which is not the same as buying into whatever crazy 'theory' is first proposed, hook line and sinker) then I agree. If you mean "so what, I still don't believe it, no matter what." then that is not being skeptical, that is being dogmatic. In any case, your 3rd layer could use some clarifiying,.

Shinobi

The 3rd "So what?" means that even if the claim is true, the use of such a power is limited in application. Say, if someone can move small bits of paper without touching them with Chi energy, the feat doesn't have a lot of use, becuase you can just move it with your finger. The same applies to ESP, even if it did turn out to be true, why not just use a telephone? Or if someone can tell what is written on the back of a card, big deal. What use is it?

I guess for some claims it would be quite a big deal if they turned out to be true. Predicting the future could be of great use averting disasters. I guess the overturning of current scientific knowlege about natural phenomena would also be quite a big deal. In practical application many so called "powers" that people claim to have can be done better with technology. It's not "So what I still dont belive in it."

BTW My post uses a dose of humour, take it about 80% seriously.

What I wanted to get across is that skeptics have many layers of defence against bunk, one of those layers which I think is an important one is establishing, in this case that Chi is really the causal factor.

Fred

I don't really know how to explain this in a manner that one who has not trained for many years could possibly understand. Mastering chi gives one the ability to control circulation and blood flow, it also involves breathing exercises.
Now I am the first to point out cons in the world of martial arts. I tell you from personal experience that there are a great many who indulge in deception. The Chinese have many ways to promote their respective styles, such as spears held against throats and that kind of nonsense. Basically these are all tricks, gimmicks.
BUT, there is a flip side to this. There are real masters who can alter the pain receptors in their bodies. My master is very famous for this in China and is a regular on TV. He can make his arm impervious to pain, I know because I have seen him do this often.
I don't know if this involves any outside forces. To me it his internal energy. I studied Qigong with him for a few years and this is a precursor to the further study of chi. All my exercises so far involved breathing and massage. Nowadays my master is in China and I will have to await his return before going on with my study. I mainly studied Hsing yi wu-shu with my master but my background is in karate and tae kwon do. The practice of Hsing yi involves much body conditioning and we often train with metal bars striking our forearms. To me, this means that as time passes we manage to kill many of the little nerves in the arm, therefore making the arm tough and immune to pain. This may play a part in his being able to not feel pain when he demonstrates his chi.
As I said, I cannot make comments on remarks made by people who do not study. Martial arts is a field full of lies, I have heard so many idiotic stories. Personally I have never seen anything that may represent an outside force of a supernatural kind in martial arts. The best fighters are the ones who are the fittest and the best trained. I have never seen a person win a fight through supernatural means. Martial arts is no different to boxing in this regard. The stories in kung fu movies about monks with power over energy outside of their bodies, or having ultimate wisdom, are just stories. Most masters I have met are not of the philosophical kind portrayed in these films. In fact none of the masters I have met were interested in philosophy at all. I'm the only one so far
Again, I see chi as an internal energy, or mastery of ones internal energy. Not as being a supernatural force. In my opinion, your friend does not know what he is talking about.
I have 5 dans in tae kwon do, 1 dan in karate, 1 dan in hap ki do, instructor status in wing chun kung fu, 8 years Choy lay fut kung fu, and 4 years ju-jutsu, 3 years Hsing yi and tai chi and qigong.
I hope this helps.
PS. I only go to Chinese doctors and have no complaints at all. I hate western medicine. My master is also a doctor of Chinese medicine.

Fred

A few years ago I was with a group of instructors when one asked if any of us had seen supernatural forces in the martial arts. We added up our collective years of experience and it totalled about 280 years. In 280 years experience in martial arts, not one of us had ever seen anything remotely like a supernatural force. We all came to the conclusion that the stories about this were false. All of us were from different styles and so had no collective agenda.

tribalbeeyatch

Hmmm...I've never studied chi, and make no claims as to having mastered it, but I can control my heart rate, blood flow to my extremities, and pupil diameter consciously. These mystical powers didn't require any years of study, and I'll wager that anybody is quite capable of the same awe-inspiring feats with only a few hours of effort. The way that I did it was to participate in clinical research studies in which I was wired up to a bunch of diagnostic equipment (ekg, pupilometer, blood pressure cuff, etc) for hours at a time. With just the biofeedback that was conveyed by these machines and the overwhelming boredome of the situation, I quickly stumbled upon a way to pass the time and entertain the study coordinator and nurses -- by changing the readings on those infernal beeping machines. At first they thought it was clever, then they thought it was annoying, and finally they stopped inviting me back as a participant in their studies because I was likely skewing their results. Chi? Yawn.

Fred

Yes, I'm sure your knowledge of this is deep. Chi practice goes a little beyond it I'd wager. If you have NOT studied chi, you simply do not know what it is. You could always take lessons. I have had people say that even without martial arts they can fight well. I then spar them and guess what ? They can't.

Ab_Normal

Thanks for the linkage... however, for the sake of domestic harmony, this'll probably stay on the "non-topic" list, unless he starts trying to indoctrinate our daughter.

tribalbeeyatch

As I already said, I don't study chi, nor do I intend to. None of the powers that you've attributed to years of chi study strikes me as all that impressive, and I've accomplished a number of them myself already without any study at all. It may be convenient for your argument to assert that one cannot grasp the significance of chi study without studying chi, but why in the hell would somebody such as myself bother? So I can consciously control my blood flow? Whoop dee doo, I can do that already. And outside of being able to say "Hey, look at me, everybody, I can consciously control my blood flow" I fail to see the significance of such an awesome and mighty ability.

Your comments about fighting ability are a complete non sequitur. I have no doubt that practicing fighting will improve one's fighting abilities. It seems obvious even. Sort of like saying that practicing my jump shot will improve my basketball game. Well, duh!

Shinobi

Maybe if you think about something scary, or something that is a source of stress for you, you can increase your heart rate.

This relates to layer 3 "so what". I can increase my heart rate and blood flow by going for a jog. I can increase blood flow to my arms by lifting something heavy.

Pain conditioning is cool, nothing supernatural about it, just one of the ways the body adapts to repeated overload stimulus, similar to getting stonger and bigger muscles from weightlifting.

Now, I'd like to see someone do something really impressive with chi, pick up a car using your mind and throw it 100 meters. That would help in a fight.

tribalbeeyatch

That's a good way to start (that's pretty much what I tried at first), but you won't even need to employ indirect methods with a bit of practice. I can either speed up or slow down my heart rate just by thinking about speeding it up or slowing it down. The biofeedback is the key, though. Being hooked up to heart rate monitors made it really easy, but I would suppose that you can do the same thing just by taking your own pulse. My resting heart rate is in the mid to low 50s, and I can reliably slow it to around 42 (just shy of the alarm settings the nurses were using) or speed it to well over 70. I am certainly a lot more conscious of my heartrate now, but, outside of thrilling the denizens of the SecWeb with my remarkable heartrate exploits, a lot of good that has done me...