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Old 02-23-2003, 10:05 AM   #11
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Default Sorry for the late replies.

Quote:
Originally posted by mattbballman
Ah, but how sure are we that this supposed 'data' actually exists? It looks like a little bit of faith might have to be smuggled into this issue.

I agree. but the materialist would probably argue that the belief that the data will eventually be discovered is not mere credulity but is based on evidence from scientific investigation in areas such as
Cognitive Science. Materialists would argue that even if the theories that you have examined could be demonstrated to be inconsistent, science continues to confirm the truth of materialism by not having to replace the current "Scientific" view of physical phenomena with another view, such as Idealism.

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I also do not see why you bring omniscience into this. Could you explain that?

Well, my assumption was that your criticisms of the materialistic theories that you considered in your post were all based on the idea that a materialistic theory of mental phenomena should not have knowledge "gaps" that reflect areas where the required further scientific research is likely to "fill in" those "gaps".
In saying this, I am not saying that materialism will be able to provide satisfactory answers to all of its possible objections. I am not a materialist. I just want to be fair in assessing the theory.
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Old 02-23-2003, 10:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by boneyard bill



Omniscience shouldn't be required for the confirmation of a theory but surely confirmation should be required. One cannot use the omniscience argument as a substitute for confirmation and the materialist theory has not been confirmed.

Correct. The "omniscience defense" is not valid as an argument in the absence of positive confirming evidence for the truth of a view.

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We have no reason to believe that further scientific investigation will lead us closer to a materialist explanation. It could very well lead us further away.

True, but only in areas where materalistic explanations and predictions of observed phenomena have come to be viewed as controversial. For most of physical science, materialism still seems to suffice.
But again, I am not a materialist. So my comments should not be viewed as an endorsement of materialism.

Quote:


Imagine if an idealist argued that idealism is true and the only reason he can't prove it is because science hasn't learned enough about the brain yet to prove it. Materialists would assert that his claim is based on an absurdity. Yet materialists use this same argument all the time to support their position.

Exactly. But the materalists claim that non-materialists/anti-materialists are exploiting "gaps" in scientific knowledge
to argue that the "gaps" themselves show that their various views are true.

At this point, I have opted not to take sides on the Idealism vs materialism issue, preferring instead to make note of any truths that arise out of dialogues between the two opposing views.

I'll be back later.
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Old 02-23-2003, 01:43 PM   #13
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Default Re: Is materialism true?

Quote:
Originally posted by mattbballman
Historically, the main alternative to dualism about the mind and body is materialism. On a materialist view, there is no mysterious “ghost in the machine” that is the mind, but rather that the mind and mental states are to be accounted for in physical terms.
Eh. You'd think physicalism would exorcise Ryle's "ghost", but you'd be only half-right. Most serious philosophers of mind are physicalists of one sort or another, but many of them are still weighed down by assumptions about the mind and consciousness that are fundamentally Cartesian in nature - specifically that there's some kind of control center in the brain where peripheral information processed by various cerebral subsystems enters a privileged "conscious" or "meaningful" or "intentional" medium. As Dan Dennett might put it, it gets marched out onto the stage of the Cartesian theater, for some internal "audience" to behold. This audience is no longer a metaphysical Self, but rather something like Fodor's LOT-translator, or Searle's nonfungible consciousness tissue, or whatever. This doctrine of "Cartesian materialism" ends up replacing a ghost with a homunculus, which is an improvement, but not much of one.

Quote:
(3) We can then approach some of the questions about the mind from a scientific standpoint. If the mind and mental states are physical, then we can use the method of science to study it. As science has already provided us with a great deal of knowledge about the world already (presumably), then we can expect the methods of science to deliver some answers about the mind as well.
I certainly agree with that. It's really shocking how obvious the answers to certain traditional philosophical problems appear when you consider the mind to be a fundamentally biological thing, produced by millions of years of evolution, and now involved in one computational process or another.

Quote:
x is in pain iff x has a disposition to yelp, scream, say ‘ouch!’, etc.

There are still some problems with this revised behaviorist analysis of pain.

(1) How does one identify dispositions to behave?
By interpreting (a) behavior, and (b) brain states.

That "brain states" clause is important. Occasionaly, one is told a story about the fall of behaviorism from its lofty perch in psychology and its subsequent replacement by "cognitivism". Behaviorism was oversimple, the story goes, since it ignored the mind (or rather, the brain) and so ran into troubles explaining certain aspects of human activity, such as language acquisition and so on. Cognitivists are different. They take the brain seriously, looking for structures in the human cognitive archictecture that correspond, on whatever level, to our folk psychological understanding of how minds work.

There is some truth to this story, but it is somewhat misleading. If there is a cognitivist/behaviorist fence still around today, the only difference between the two sides is that behaviorists want to emphasize behavior and cognitivists want to emphasize cognition. But everyone will agree that behavior and cognition are two sides of the same coin. Even "internal" events that a wily interpreter would be unable to scry from someone's behavior are really "behavior", too. They are behavior in the brain, and they supervene on behavioral dispositions. This is a different story, and the moral is that we should consider the newfound focus on cognitive architecture an improvement over the glory days of Skinner & co., but we should keep the behaviorist skepticism about "privacy", nonetheless.

Quote:
(2) The ‘etc.’ is a problem--in fact, it seems there is virtually an infinite range of behavioral ways to exhibit pain, and all of them would have to be included in the analysis in order for that analysis to be correct.
Replace "correct" with "complete", and I'll agree. But as a good modern behaviorist (though I don't much like the term), I would also point out that a complete analysis would have to involve complete knowledge of the brain state, anyway, and besides, a complete analysis is not on offer in the first place.

Quote:
(3) The analysis ignores the “inner aspects” of pain, namely what it feels like to be in pain. Just saying how that pain might be exhibited in behavior doesn’t account for what it is like to be in pain. Such “inner aspects” or “raw feels” or qualia aren’t accounted for by behaviorism. Remember the mutant, who would have the same dispositions to behave as you and me but would feel something different given the same stimuli and dispositions to behave.
Frankly, I think the idea that one could have the same set of behavioral dispositions attached to different "feelings" or vice versa is incoherent, so if behaviorism can't account for it, I say so much the better for behaviorism. No philosopher has yet been able to give any reason for anyone to take such a notion seriously. Mutants, zombies, Mary, inverted spectra - they're all cleverly designed to bring out the vague intuition that there's just something more to experience than all the "merely" dispositional and informational things that happen in the brain. But a vague intuition is all that it is, and while a proper theory would have to be able to explain this intuition, it need not pay it any respect.

Quote:
Multiple-realizability. It seems that even if materialism is correct, there are many different ways a mental state like pain might get realized as far as physical states are
concerned.
For instance, it seems possible that an alien could experience the very same pain as you or me, yet the alien might have a radically different physical constitution. It might not even have C-fibers at all (but instead have D-fibers, E-fibers, or something else going on in its brain). It seems possible that the same mental state could be physically realized in many different ways, but this is ruled out by the identity theory. The reason is that the identity theory identifies a mental state with a specific kind of physical state.
No argument there. :notworthy There are escape routes that identity theorists can take to get away from multiple realizability, e.g. by saying that the identity relation is between mental and physical tropes, but I would agree that most of these escape routes lead to causal functionalism.

Quote:
(P1) Mary knows all of the physical facts about the experience of red.
(P2) If Mary knows all of the physical facts about the experience of red, and if what it is like to experience red is a physical fact, then Mary would know what it is like to experience red.
(P3) Mary doesn’t know what it is like to experience red (since she would learn something new upon her release from the cave and seeing a red apple for the first time).
(C1) So, there is something about the experience of red that is non-physical.
(P4) But if the identity theory is true, then having the experience of red would be a physical state.
(C2) So, the identity theory is false.
Jackson's knowledge argument is another fine piece of intuition-mongering. There is no reason at all to accept (P3), but of course it seems crazy not to. Why? Simply because when people try to imagine the hypothetical, they tend to miss their target by several orders of magnitude. Of course if you simply raise someone without exposing her to color and have her read some neuroscience books on color vision, she will learn something from her first color experience. But Mary is not just someone who read some neuroscience books on color vision; she is, ex hypothesi physically omniscient with respect to her brain states, which means that she can perfectly predict her dispositional state upon having her color experience and so cannot really learn anything. If it seems utterly weird that Mary should learn nothing, it is only because the idea of being physically omniscient is itself utterly weird.

Quote:
Problems with functionalism:
(1) How should we distinguish mental states from other functional states? In the absence of any distinction, then ordinary machines like thermostats and carburetors could have
mental states.
Well, how do we distinguish any functional state from other functional states? By specifying the function, of course!

Quote:
The qualia problem remains.
Been there, done that. What qualia?

Quote:
The same sort of worry is made with the “inverted spectrum” example given in
Blackburn's book THINK pp. 72ff. It seems possible that someone could have their experiences of color “inverted” in the sense that for things that we experience as red, they would experience
them in the same way that we experience green things, and vice versa. They would still call ripe tomatoes and fire engines ‘red’, and healthy grass ‘green’, but their color experiences would be different. However according to functionalism we would all be in
the same mental state upon viewing a ripe tomato. But this doesn’t seem right since those with inverted spectra would be experiencing something different. So it seems that functionalism has left something out in its analysis of color perception--namely what it is like to experience colors.
I should hope that Blackburn then goes on to explain what is wrong with such an analysis, but if not, I'll be glad to oblige. Suppose one jolly day you are walking down the street and a bolt of lightning from the heavens strikes you in the head and flips your color qualia. Suddenly, you see fire engines as green and grass as red. Now the question then is, do you notice? Ex hypothesi you can't notice, since "noticing" would make a functional difference, and qualia can't make functional differences (which sounds an awful lot like a fancy way of saying "there are no qualia", but whatever). But then we are left with the unsettling conclusion that your qualia could be flipping back and forth every other minute without your noticing. Maybe your qualia got inverted while you were reading this post. Somehow, this seems to rob the concept of its intuitive appeal, wouldn't you say?

As for the Chinese Room, it's a good argument to use against Cartesian materialists who think that meaningless peripheral information must be translated for use by the inner "I" - and Dennett used it in that capacity before Searle did - but it just won't do for people who think the meaning is in the symbols themselves, not in the brain of a homunculus. "If you take care of the syntax, the semantics will take care of itself."
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Old 02-23-2003, 07:29 PM   #14
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Default Re: Re: Is materialism true?

Quote:
Originally posted by Abrupt
......Most serious philosophers of mind are physicalists of one sort or another, but many of them are still weighed down by assumptions about the mind and consciousness that are fundamentally Cartesian in nature - specifically that there's some kind of control center in the brain where peripheral information processed by various cerebral subsystems enters a privileged "conscious" or "meaningful" or "intentional" medium. As Dan Dennett might put it, it gets marched out onto the stage of the Cartesian theater, for some internal "audience" to behold. This audience is no longer a metaphysical Self, but rather something like Fodor's LOT-translator, or Searle's nonfungible consciousness tissue, or whatever.
My idea is that everything we are aware of is in working memory (aka short term memory), and it is only a few thousand bits of data. To give the data a richer meaning, the data triggers associations and data with lower priority (less emotional content?) is discarded from the working memory and replaced with the new data. New associations can be triggered quickly - I think the brain cycles at about 50 Hz - giving the illusion that we have instant access to the associations that makes our understandings of things "rich".
I think there is a central structure that is used for learning and association (not necessarily physically in one piece?) - this is because we can associate anything together - we can associate smells (of smoke) with concepts (smoke and fire) - we can associate visual shapes (words) with objects or properties or concepts - we can associate spoken sounds with visual sensations (colours) - etc... in any combination. I think that we automatically associate all elements of our experiences together... (including our emotions) - then when we have experiences where there is one area of similiarity, that association gets strengthened. e.g. after a while a dog might learn that it was the sitting after the command "sit" that lead to the emotional reward (food/affection) rather than other things like a bell it heard ringing before hand. So we find patterns, but initially we mightn't know what things are related to what so our brain just associates them all together - just in case.
Also, I think the pleasure signal is used by the brain to mean that a certain situation, etc, is the goal. The pain signal means that certain situations need to be avoided - depending on the signals intensities. Whenever we feel pain or pleasure, the contents of our working memory (awareness) are associated with those emotions and cause that situation to become more or less desirable. When the brain is working out what to do it would receive an emotional response - e.g. that newness is required due to boredom - and then it works out how to best react using problem solving strategies that the brain has learnt over time.
So what do you think of that? It don't think it involves a homunculus (little man)...
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