philechat

See it as art. It is subjective and works for the person. The problem only begins when he is confusing it with objectivity and universality. People perform meaningless (and fictitious) activities all the time, such as reading novels and watching movies. We know the stories are fiction (and often unscientific) but we still enjoy knowing about them. Why can't occult practices be a similar artistic activity?

Nowhere357

Philechat speaks wisdom, IMO.

You know, chanting is meditation, inscense smells good, a group is social, crystals are cool, a bonfire is fun, and everyone should try howling at the moon. Really.

Harumi

But the naked part is fun though. Surely there can be some artistic license in that?

Harumi

Hmmm...

I was reading a book that supposedly explains "magick". Here's what he has to say:

"In the present age such concepts as magic seem to us ridiculous and almost abhorrent. We have science, which explains the universe in clear rational terms without reference to such primitive notions as magic and the supernatural...yet it is curious that many of us shiver in apprehension of the dark;amazing that once the comfort of daylight has passed and we are left alone, such words as "ghost", "spirit", and "demon" assume reality within vivid imaginations.

"The problem occurs because we all innately believe in magic, as most psychologists will testify. Regardless of our profession or mental outlook, we all possess unconscious minds that are very similar below a certain level...Our unconscious minds still believe that we live in a fairy-tale world of magic--in the concepts that we rgard as ludicrous--and so we can never completely claim scepticism."

And here's the "real" explanation of what magick is.

"Magick is almost synonymous with the occult (a word that simply means "hidden", and has no allusions to evil as the Chrstian church would have us believe). In essence, it is the knowledge of humans and their relationship to the universe...the center of its doctrine is that we are all spiritual beings, with the potential to develop far beyond what we are born as. In this way there is similarity to religion, but there is no emphasis on faith. The principles are clearly demonstrable to any open-minded individual, and the results occur in the present, not in some far-off realm where the individual is dead (though magick does not deny the existence of such realms).

"It is an axiom of magick that man is a miniature replica of the universe: that the forces that flow through the cosmos are also to be found within man's psyche...In High Magick the universe is seen to be composed of many different planes, all inter-penetrating. The physical universe is the most dense and the only one perceived by most individuals. The astral, mental, and spiritual planes also exist simultaneously but are too fine to discern...There planes are objective realities of the universe, but they are also the map of our unconscious minds. The images of gods, demons, angels, and archetypal heroes all stem fromthe great source and so humans are irrevocably linked together. The planes may be thought of as a giant mind, of which our conscious minds are tiny growths, analogous to leaves growing on a tree. The planes emanate from Kether on the Tree of Life, the Source that may be considered God."

Okay, then he goes into defending his explanation:

"The explanation may seem far-fetched, but magick can explain a great number of mysteries. With some consideration it is possible to explain fairy tales, reincarnation, prescience, clairvoyance, out-of-body experiences, dreams, telepath, telekinesis, ghosts, mediumship, auras, and countless other phenomena...Science is gradually beginning to confirm these doctrines, which have existed for thousands of yeras. Science broke away from the occult subjects only a few hundred years ago. It now begins to return to its roots as scientists are baffled by the consequences of quantum physics."

"Magic consists of removing the limitations from what we think are earthly and spiritual laws that bind or compel us.We can be anything because we are ALL."

This was written by D. A. Heeley. Ronin: Darkness and Light Book II. These quotes are part of his essay at the end of his story, and he does admit that he has not provided proof for this essay.

Makes me wonder what you guys think of this. And if you want more explanations, he even provided his email address: dheeley@kether.demon.co.uk and his web page http://www.kether.demon.co.uk

I frankly, don't know what to think.

Calzaer

Bullshit. The theory of Evolution says nothing about the existence or non-existence of God. I try to keep my bias and preconceptions away from science, and I'd appreciate it if you did too.

Why go poetry? You can have a potent, meaningful experience without the pretention and goth-ness, and downsliding away from true forms of writing.

(note: The above is sarcasm. Your arrogance is astounding.)

Yup.

The concept of "metaphore" is lost on you completely.

Weren't you the guy who was sobbing into his beer about how science has destroyed his self-esteem?

Pick one, kid. Either science is the end all be all, or there's something bigger out there.

(and it obviously CAN be mixed with theistic concepts, since a metric shitload of people do it on a daily basis)

What high-school class have you taken that's given you such a complete and in-depth understanding of the mysterious phenomena called "luck"?

emotional

Strictly speaking the theory of evolution does not negate the existence of God; however, even if there is a God, the theory makes it clear that He is acting only through natural processes. The god of theistic evolution is a puppet for nature's hand, which does the real work, just like a constitutional monarch is a puppet for the parliament, which does the real ruling. As William Provine said: evolution means that no gods worth having exist.

Evolution is naturalism. Materialism. Atheism. Evolution is not compatible with theism. I do not believe in "non-overlapping magisteria" of science and religion.




Well I have news for you. Experiences of other worlds, whether they be induced by meditation or by LSD, are emergent of the brain. Apart from this natural, material world there is no other.



Metaphor for what? What do those outdated concepts of "God" and "Goddess" stand for?



Science tells you what there is. I find science itself boring, but I can't escape its conclusions. There's nothing bigger out there.

Calzaer

So perhaps God is a manifestation of nature, and not the other way around. Perhaps nature IS God.

First: Thank you for correcting my spelling. I always get that word wrong.

Second: Perhaps they're anthropomorphized versions of nature and natural forces? They certainly are associated with enough natural symbolism.

Since when has science told us that? Just because we hadn't found evidence of neutrinos/dark matter/black holes/planets around other stars/etc until very recently doesn't mean they weren't out there. But that's a semantical quibble brought on by your arrogant proclaimation, not an actual statement of belief.

If you can't escape sciences conclusions, why are you kicking and screaming about it in SL&S? All this crap about creating an atheistic religion just looks like a denial of the inevitable. Either believe or don't believe; this half-assed whiny stuff is getting annoying. If there's nothing bigger out there, be an atheist and move on with life.

Nowhere357

Is science omnipotent?

emotional

You could say that, though I don't, because in my book the word "God" has a very specific meaning: the sovereign ruler of the world who controls nature, forgives sins, etc. To quote Richard Dawkins' pertinent words, from his essay "Snake Oil and Holy Water":

Indeed I used to call myself a pantheist in the past, but now I see it as a name-game not worthy of my time. I'm a materialist, naturalist, atheist.



Again, I used to call Nature "the Goddess", but I now think the word "god" or "goddess" is reserved for a sovereign being.

It wasn't in SL&S, it was in GRD, and it was about my fear of death, but let's not nitpick. I do have a problem of fear of death that surfaces from time to time, and I try to find ways of curing it, such as by believing in life after death, though always, always I end up rejecting life after death and other supernatural theories, because I just can't believe. I really am an atheist.

That being said, I also call myself religious. Or spiritual, if you think the term "religious" is reserved for supernatural systems. I do not believe the Sun, Moon, stars, trees and stones are gods or personal beings, but I feel like worshipping them all the same. This system, in which one does not believe in the supernatural but one does worship Nature in deep awe, is called secular paganism (or atheist paganism). I do not believe the trees and stones hear prayer, but I reverence them just as you pay homage to the Goddess and the God. Please don't laugh. I'm anti-supernaturalist but I'm not anti-religion or anti-spirituality. I disbelieve in the occult, and I turn this disbelief into the basis of my religion.

The idea of being a secular pagan was originally devised by a woman who called herself "Secular Pagan". She had a website called "Secular Spirituality", which is no longer online but is archived here.

Let's be more tolerant of each other. I know I'm an arrogant bastard, but that can't be helped. To each his own source of spirituality. Power be to you in your studies of the occult.

Calzaer

My apologies for the harsh tone. Life hasn't been going smoothly lately.

I think that's rather silly. Why allow the upstart Christians to monopolize the word "God"? Is there a better word I could use for what I worship, since even in its most theistic religious sense, the God and Goddess don't exactly meet that definition...