Maurice

Now, please, tell me if the inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were combatants.
Please.

Jimmy Higgins

(deleted) Well Loren, that charge is kinda high up on the smear chart. Its along the lines of "Do you love America?"... ie the charge us liberals got for questioning Bush's idea of invading Iraq.

There is a difference between understanding terrorism and supporting it. And to charge someone with supporting murder is a rather sad thing to do.

Jimmy Higgins

Don't forget most of Germany too!

Jimmy Higgins

I think the problem in the Middle East is that people seem to be completely unaware that both sides can be wrong at the same time!

Loren Pechtel

Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't hit out of line with what happened to other cities. Had the bomb not existed they would have been hit as hard. It just would have taken thousands of planes.

Back then we didn't have the ability to be selective in our bombing, and besides, the Japanese war industry was mostly decentralized. There weren't point targets to be hit even if we could have hit them. To hit the industry meant hitting the city.

Loren Pechtel

Certainly there are wrongs on both sides.

Rather than worry about fixing blame I look at what can be done to end the violence. I see no reason to think there's anything Israel can do short of nuclear weapons against Arab cities. Israel has been pretty good about cease fires, though--which says that the terrorists can end the cycle.

Nice Squirrel

Impartial Mod Note:

Accusations of other posters and discussion of said accusations are not allowed here. Keep it on topic and civil.

Ravon

Far be it from me to defend Sauron but I wonder Epictetus if you are not suffering from the same malice. Jimmy Higgins called it fair when he said that the trouble in the middle east is that people fail to understand that both sides can be wrong at the same time. I would add that both sides can be right at the same time. Its right, wouldn't you say, for both sides to want a homeland and wrong for either to fuck with the aspirations that each have for a homeland.

When I was in the middle east and met with palestinians I came to understand the depth of their desire to go home. It was every bit as strong as that which drove the Jewish people to come to Palestine. I remember standing on a hillside in 1967 with a palestinian family and they pointed out where they had lived across the valley. I was uncomfortable with their tears because for them to return would cost them their lives. When I ask Lauren to be real and you as well it is because of these experiences. I would never deny Israels right to exist but I agree with rlogan who points out that Israel is perpetrating the same kinds of horrors on the palestinians they experienced. I say that knowing that to a zionist that is the worst kind of blasphemy. But I ask how can that be alright?

James T

I hunted round and tried to find some support of this statement. Basically it's impossible to. Both sides are guilty of breaking them routinely.

Yes, I'm sure that if all the Palestinians turn up and abase themselves to the Israelis and totally surrender all thought of a land, self-determination, their own independent police and military then yes, that would end the cycle.

No, I would not expect Palestinians to actually do this. I find it far more understandable for them to fight, by any means at their disposal, Israel.

I thought I'd see if I could find some overall figures, not easy but here is one source of Total Casualties. The fact that mainstream sources do not seem to quote these at all suggests a) they may be right and b) they don't want to report them, why don't they want to report them?

Also from this site this is obviously some kind of defensive action by Israel against the horrible threat of extermination by the all powerful Palestinians.

Jimmy Higgins

*Jimmy Higgins pondering something*

What is the ratio of Palestinian Homes being destroyed by Israeli Armys to that of illegally settled Israeli Housing being destroyed by the Israeli Army?