ReasonableDoubt

In the book of Ezekiel, he prophesies about the end of the world - and what will occur in the new earth - I believe in chapters 32 and following. This prophecy is VERY specific, in fact giving exact measurements of the new temple, etc. Also, Ezekiel gives explicit prophecy about the animal sacrificing that will occur.
My question is, if Jesus took the place of the animal sacrifice, why will there be a need in the future to revert to animal sacrifice? Clearly, Ezekiel himself had no idea that the system God set up for the Jews would be usurped by Jesus.
I've read some Evangelical Christians response to this assertion, and none seem plausible. Norman Geisler replies that the animal sacrifices will just be symbolic, since Christ was the last sacrifice for all. That doesn't seem right- at least there is no way to glean that from the text of Ezekiel itself.

Magus55

He did fulfill all Messianic Prophecies that were stated to happen while He was on Earth. I think there were some 300 Messianic Prophecies. Yes there are still some left to be fulfilled, but Jesus isn't finished yet. He fulfilled all the prophecies that He was meant to while on Earth. And by mathematical standards, the odds of Jesus fullfilling just 48 of those few hundred prophecies, is a number astronimically higher than the number of protons it would take to fill the universe end to end. Thats convincing evidence that Jesus was the Messiah, because no one but an omnipotent all-knowing God could succeed with those kind of odds.

Celsus

Now, now, Magus. I do believe you've ducked every prophecy challenge that has been posted to you. Don't you think it's a little disingenuous to now be claiming the above? Or, if you have the time (I don't, but I'm sure others on this board do), perhaps you'd like to prove your statements in a new thread?

Joel

mark9950

Will be met by magus55,maybe he could explain these

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EstherRose

1. Could someone summarize what it means to "fulfill" a law?

The law was meant to make men and women righteous in God’s eyes. Jesus fulfilled that by His existence, death and resurrection. Belief in Him grants us righteousness and eternal life.


2. If (as pointed out in another thread) our works only lay out HOW nice our portion of heaven is, would it not behoove a Christian to follow these laws anyway to get a good spot?

This is incorrect because you keep thinking we have to have a reward for what we do. We try to follow the word of God and His desires out of love for Him, not because we long for rewards or praise. I’ll be happy to be allowed to be in a small distant corner of heaven, the most worthless of the saved. At least I’ll still be saved.

3. As these laws include the 10 Commandments, why are Christians so keen on posting them when they don't apply?

Out of love for the Lord. They form the basis of Judeo-Christian morality.

Let’s try again. The Mosaic laws were part of the Covenant God had with Abraham. The Covenant ended with Jesus. There is now a new Covenant with God which is that belief in Jesus will erase our sins and grant us eternal life.

The test of faith is to produce good fruits. There are many ways to produce good fruits, not just by giving away all of your possessions. Christians try very hard to follow the desires of God, but we often fall short. This is why no one can come to the Father except through Jesus. We are just far too sinful. So yes, many of us are unable to follow through and give away all of our things. In the parable in which Jesus tells the rich man to give up all of his possessions and follow Him, the lesson there was that the rich man thought he followed all of the commandments and therefore could make it into heaven. Jesus was pointing out that he was breaking the 10th commandment, that is, desiring (his neighbor’s) possessions. Even when it was pointed out, the rich man could not let it go.

The bible also states that true charity is done in secret and not for show. Many Christians give away far more money and do far more acts of charity than you may realize because it is something that we are supposed to do quietly. (Please note I am not saying unbelievers do not do true charity. I am just responding to a question.)

We try to follow God’s desires to please Him because we love Him. We do not try to follow His desires to prove something to you or anyone else. You may not be aware of our good fruits, but they are there.


As far as prophecies, I attempted to provide some from what limited amount I knew. Since prophecy is not something I ever cared about, it was not an area of Bible study I focused on. There were other areas I was far more interested in. Each of those posts requires a lot of study and just plain old looking stuff up. It was clear from someone’s posts early on (essentially mocking me) that nothing I could post would make any difference to anyone so I decided to post somewhere else. Otherwise I could spend several hours essentially wasting my time posting a response that no one would pay any attention to. Like others, I came to this board to have intelligent conversation. If you are interested, I will spend the time looking up stuff regarding prophecy, but only if there is a genuine interest and not just to mock. The bible actually admonishes us not to waste our time to those who refuse to hear.

Matthew 7
6"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.

This scripture basically means teaching about the kingdom of God should be given in accordance with the spiritual capacity of its listeners.

I hope this satisfies your questions.

Javaman

This doesn't answer my question but maybe it's unanswerable. I would have thought that, if your's was the correct interpretation, there would have been a more explicit passage in the NT. Look, if your going to devote chapter after chapter to these laws, at least make the part where you say they no longer apply more lucid.

I didn't make this up, another (Christian) poster did. I don't remember the thread (heck, it may be this one) but I'll look for it when I'm done here. Essentially he/she said that's why people did works... not to get into heavan since that was accomplished by faith. They did good works to improve their position.

Then out of love for the lord, I would think these same people would be cool with all the other laws. I think you might like reading some other threads where the origin of the 10C's is discussed. Most of the commandments are hardly original.

Again, this is not clear in the either books of the bible. If you think it is, I suggest you look at the multitudes of sects of Chritianity and other religions around the world.

Would you give the the Chapter and Verse there, please. I'd like to take a closer look.

Is this true??? I thought Jesus was perfect and that's why it was such an impressive sacrifice. Again, I'd really like to read this part.

Really! I know you professed ignorance earlier but to not ever care about prophesy! Cripes, this is one of the underpinnings of your whole belief system. If Christ isn't the messiah and you've been following him, your in a heap if there really is a YHWH.

I think this is a cop out. Essentially, try to convert everyone as it is your duty but, if they seem unreceptive, give up. Remeber, BTW, you came to an unbeliever message board.

You'd better check with the other posters here because I don't even think you've even scratched the surface.

Javaman

This is one that I've already ponted out...

Calzaer

:boohoo:

"When I can't respond, I'll claim not to care and whine about how people are ridiculing my belief in a man who was born from a woman and spoke in parables. I'll show them; I'll get to go to the Eternal Magic Happy Kingdom In The Sky, and laugh while they're in the Eternal Magic Torture Chamber Underground."

agnawstick

There are no true christians. They have this cop out that the Sermon on the mount was meant for Jews. All the wonderful things Jesus required doesn't apply to them. It is crap, pure unadulterated crap.

James was right. Even if you need not do good works to be saved, as Paul argues, your good works, prove your faith. A body that does not breathe is dead, just as faith without works is dead. James also went on to say that those who hoard gold, and let that gold rust (i.e. not be used to help others) are evil people, as are those who cheat their workers by trying to stiff their paychecks.

But he was a jewish follower of christ. He don't count. I also love this argument, that "we do other works". Hogwash. You don't believe in Jesus enough to renounce your wealth, to give to all, to love all, but ya believe in him enough to condemn others, even when he tells you not to, until your sinning days have ended.

Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount that God provides for the birds, who store no grain, and he clothes the flowers beautifully, who don't spin yarn, so why don't you have faith that he will provide for you? Nothing is stopping any christian from taking that leap of faith. That is the key here for me. If they had faith, they would do what Jesus said was right, even if itsn't required.

I am under no obligation to help an old lady with her groceries, but it is a good thing to do. Jesus said these things were the right things to do. Sure Paul says you get your heaven without them, but who is fooling who here. If ya wanna talk the talk, walk the walk, until then, get out of the way.

Cheap grace is not a beautiful thing.

Kilgore Trout

EstherRose said:

Calzaer was pointing out your errors in thinking Jesus fulfills prophecy. Saying someone is wrong is not the same as mocking. If You think 2+2=5 and I point out that it's 4, I am not mocking you. Maybe he was sarcastic sometimes, but when someone thinks being born of a woman is a great messianic prophecy, it's sometimes kind of hard to avoid all sarcasm. The point of debates is now you are supposed to go through his post and tell him why you think he is wrong. If you can't do that, maybe it's because he's not wrong!

The book of Psalms is not prophecy, it is literature. Even if it was intended to be prophecy it is so general and broad that anyone could fulfill them. Here's an example of an incorrect use of Psalms by Jesus...

Jesus claims he "fulfills" Psalm 41:9 "The man who shared my food has turned against me". Well, in Psalm 41:4 the writer says "I have sinned against you Lord, be merciful to me and heal me." It is clear that the same person is talking in both verses, so unless you think Jesus sinned, Psalm 41:9 is not about Jesus and even he can't figure that out! Also millions of people have been betrayed by friends so that is why it is not prophecy. It is too easy.

Every prophecy that Jesus "fulfilled" can be summed up as being too broad, self fulfilling or not even messianic prophecies. If I wanted to pretend I was the messiah, I'd ride into Jerusalem on a donkey. Not too impressive.

As Javaman says, this is a cop-out. Anybody can have the "pearls before pigs" idea. I can say I'm an alien from Mars, and anyone who doesn't believe me are just heathen who refuse to listen. The reason Jesus knows we "pigs" will "trample on the pearls" is because he knows the arguments don't hold up to any logical scrutiny. Every cult leader would tell his followers the same thing.