Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 11-06-2002, 05:19 PM

Rad - Jesus is almost universally admired, even if no one can quite agree on who he was. That has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian or not, or the definition of church-state separation. The Deists in England and American made a point of appropriating Jesus from the Christians and redefining him as a non-divine wisdom teacher.

At this point, I'm not sure what you are arguing. I am pretty sure that your fantasy of Franklin above libels him. If you cannot support it in some way, please retract it.

Toto · 11-06-2002, 05:32 PM

<a href="http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/" target="_blank">Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin</a> is on line.

He talks about Whitefield <a href="http://www.earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/chapt10/index.html" target="_blank">here:</a>

Quote:

In 1739 arrived among us from Ireland the Reverend Mr. Whitefield, who had made himself remarkable there as an itinerant preacher. He was at first permitted to preach in some of our churches; but the clergy, taking a dislike to him, soon refus'd him their pulpits, and he was oblig'd to preach in the fields. . . .

{Then a hall is built}
Both house and ground were vested in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service.

. . .

. . .methinks my testimony in his favour ought to have the more weight, as we had no religious connection. He us'd, indeed, sometimes to pray for my conversion, but never had the satisfaction of believing that his prayers were heard. Ours was a mere civil friendship, sincere on both sides, and lasted to his death.

The following instance will show something of the terms on which we stood. Upon one of his arrivals from England at Boston, he wrote to me that he should come soon to Philadelphia, but knew not where he could lodge when there, as he understood his old friend and host, Mr. Benezet, was removed to Germantown.

My answer was, "You know my house; if you can make shift with its scanty accommodations, you will be most heartily welcome." He reply'd, that if I made that kind offer for Christ's sake, I should not miss of a reward. And I returned, "Don't let me be mistaken; it was not for Christ's sake, but for your sake."

So he had a friendly relationship with Whitefield and admired him, but gives no indication of believing a word he said.

So far you lose. Can you produce any quotes about final judgment?

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 05:37 PM

Radorth, you are a liar.

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Radorth, you are a liar.

Really? What did I lie about? Kindly supply one or two examples/ facts when slandering people.

Rad

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Radorth:
<strong>

Really? What did I lie about? Kindly supply one or two examples/ facts when slandering people.

Rad</strong>

One or two? I'll be generous.

1) Your claims about the school prayer case.
2) Your claims in this thread about Franklin.

Liar.

(By the way, check your Bible. Exodus 20:16 has something to say about this sort of thing. Some Christian you are.)

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 06:39 PM

Oh, and

3) Claiming I'm slandering you.

It's only slander if it isn't true.

gravitybow · 11-06-2002, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Rad:
Ah you know what I'm talking about, so you are getting legalistic. So, if he advertised that there were no atheists in America, and I gave you the quote, you would say "see, he didn't say exactly that." Am I correct? Very clever of you GB.

Geez, Rad. When you're not putting words into the founders mouths, you're putting them into mine. How about giving me a chance to speak for myself? I'm not a Ben Franklin puppet, ya' know.

You missed my last post presumably because we posted within one minute of each other. Here it is again:

Quote:

gravitybow asks politely:
Since when have I or Buffman ever said that context doesn't matter? Are you really paying so little attention to what we've said that you've missed our "context matters" concerns?

Tell ya' what: Send the Barton quote on Franklin (lack of atheists) and we'll see if context matters.

How about it?

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 06:50 PM

Oh, and let's not forget:

Straw men arguments are dishonest in their very nature as well.

So we'll be generous to you and call that #4, even though you've made numerous straw man arguments in the past.

Radorth · 11-06-2002, 07:16 PM

Quote:

At this point, I'm not sure what you are arguing.

I just made up a little interview with Franklin, showing what he would have thought of all this "separation" business, and it went from there. I don't know why you folks think I was argung Franklin was a Christian, even after I said he was not. I was simply arguing in general that the founders would not have objected to 90% of the "violations" of the Constitution which you see- not that Franklin was a Christian. I'm saying most of you would cry a river if the Sermon on the Mount were read in schools, and he would not. Therefore, how can you say there is a problem if you can't show any of them ever objected, and even seemed to encourage religious teaching?

Is this logic just too deep for ya, or what?

Rad

Daggah · 11-06-2002, 07:18 PM

Logic isn't a word that can be used to describe your posts, Radorth.

Claiming it can is another lie. I believe that's #5...but then again, who's counting?

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11-06-2002, 05:19 PM	#121
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Rad - Jesus is almost universally admired, even if no one can quite agree on who he was. That has nothing to do with whether one is a Christian or not, or the definition of church-state separation. The Deists in England and American made a point of appropriating Jesus from the Christians and redefining him as a non-divine wisdom teacher. At this point, I'm not sure what you are arguing. I am pretty sure that your fantasy of Franklin above libels him. If you cannot support it in some way, please retract it.

11-06-2002, 05:37 PM	#123
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Radorth, you are a liar.

11-06-2002, 06:39 PM	#126
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Oh, and 3) Claiming I'm slandering you. It's only slander if it isn't true.

11-06-2002, 06:50 PM	#128
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Oh, and let's not forget: Straw men arguments are dishonest in their very nature as well. So we'll be generous to you and call that #4, even though you've made numerous straw man arguments in the past.

11-06-2002, 07:18 PM	#130
Daggah Banned Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Deployed to Kosovo Posts: 4,314	Logic isn't a word that can be used to describe your posts, Radorth. Claiming it can is another lie. I believe that's #5...but then again, who's counting?

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