Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cesoid · 03-13-2003, 05:29 PM

I believe I agree with AdamWho in this matter, but I'd like to make myself a little more clear.

I think that it is a mistake to ask for a "Meaning of Life" and that when you realize what you are asking for, you will also realize that the phrase "Meaning of Life" actually has no meaning. People only think that it makes sense because it makes sense to find a "meaning" or a "purpose" for things other than life.

The purpose of my computer speakers is to synthesize sounds. But they only have this purpose because this is the motivation behind their creation. The speakers were made with the intention that they would synthesize sounds for somebody. You can't apply this to "life" because in this particular case, when people say "life", they don't mean one person's life, and they don't even mean "life" in general, they mean everything. Am I right?

By asking for a meaning of life, people aren't trying to find why someone caused them to exist. If your parents had you for some specific reason, would you automatically adopt this as your meaning of life? No, and that's why I think that the question is a question of the meaning of everything.

There can be no meaning of everything, because something only has a purpose when it is created for a purpose. No one can create everything, because you would have to exist before everything existed, which is a contradiction.

But we must also address the psychology of the issue. Why do people want a "Meaning of Life"? My theory is this: There is a part of your mentality that is constantly evaluating other parts of your mentality in order to verify that they serve some purpose. Why are you pealing a banana? To eat it. Why are you shoveling the driveway? To get to work. But you will probably eventually get to the top, and ask, why am I living? There is no answer, which makes this part of your mentality uncomfortable. For some people, this part of them would much rather distort logic enough to accept some "Meaning to Life" absolutely, than to go on knowing that they can't have an answer to this question.

It used to drive me crazy to think that there's no meaning to life. But after thinking about it for a long time, I realized that there's no purpose in trying to find a purpose for life. I stopped asking myself what I should do, and started asking myself what I was going to do. And what I was going to do was explore some things, work on some projects, and basically try to be happy.

Answerer · 03-13-2003, 10:12 PM

Jamie, I got your point but I don't really agree. You see, its like death. Death is definite certainity to all of us yet we can often see people worrying over some things they could not change.

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal
Well that's why I said people and not atheists. Likewise I do not think you can speak for most atheists on this matter.

I think I left out the word 'may', I should have checked.

Quote:

Originally posted by Primal

Well I'd say that was very questionable. I mean scientific research suggests that our personalities are determined by genes and enviroment, not by random decisions.

Ok, our behaviour may be pre-determined by genes and environment but what determine our environment or genes? For genes, it might be due to years of evolution or even some quantum physics (which is randomistic in either case), but how about the 'enivronment'? Do we have a choice to select my place of birth or nationality? Apparently not, we are randomly 'selected'.

That is what I mean by a "largely randomistic reality"(maybe largely is a bit too much), there is no real cause to initiate our birth in a particular country or society(if you are not arguing from a religious point of view) and yet we are somehow born within our own 'unique' society. So, I could say that our personalities are indirectly the result of randomly 'selected' environment that we never choose ourselves to be in.

cheetah · 03-16-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cesoid
For some people, this part of them would much rather distort logic enough to accept some "Meaning to Life" absolutely, than to go on knowing that they can't have an answer to this question.

It used to drive me crazy to think that there's no meaning to life. But after thinking about it for a long time, I realized that there's no purpose in trying to find a purpose for life. I stopped asking myself what I should do, and started asking myself what I was going to do. And what I was going to do was explore some things, work on some projects, and basically try to be happy.

For those people that HAVE to have a meaning of life, and for you, cesoid, in the past, WHY did you/they feel that way? I am honestly curious, because I have NEVER felt that way. I ahve always been comfortable, since I was a little cheetah, with no higher meaning, but with a clear sense of the purposes and goals I wanted to achieve for myself. I just don't understand what drives people so crazy about the "higher meaning."

cesoid · 03-17-2003, 07:08 PM

Well cheetah, that's an interesting question. I'm not completely sure of the answer, even for myself, but it could have something to do with the fact that I was raised Catholic, and generally given the idea that "everything" has a purpose, because God intended some purpose for it. It turned out that this need for a sense of "ultimate" purpose stuck with me until well after I stopped believing in God.

One of my friends who I went to Catholic high school with really feels this need for a purpose, but he wasn't really raised catholic before he started going to that high school in 11th grade. He and I, and a couple of my other friends, became very agnostic/atheistic our senior year. However, the friend in question recently became very Christian again. Like, fundamentalist type Christian. When I talked to him recently he reaffirmed how depressing he thought it would be for life to have no ultimate purpose.

So, in my case I started religious and finished not caring about not having a meaning of life, and in the case of my friend, he started very not religious, became somewhat religious, became not religious again, then became very religious and feels very strongly that he needs to have a meaning to life. This says to me that it probably doesn't have to do with whether you were raised to believe in an ultimate purpose.

No other reason for this seems to come to mind, and I definitely can't put my finger on what was going on in my head when it used to bother me.

AdamWho · 03-17-2003, 07:28 PM

cesoid

This says to me that it probably doesn't have to do with whether you were raised to believe in an ultimate purpose.

I tend to believe that the need for "meaning in life" has a lot to do with self esteem.

Many people just extra stuff feel complete.

Unbeliever · 03-30-2003, 04:43 PM

Wow! I sure am glad to know that I'm not the only nihilist around! BTW, why is it that nihilism has such a negative social stigma?

It seems to me to be the only rational choice among a plethora of competing worldviews.

Nowhere357 · 03-31-2003, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cheetah
Do you all ever get tired of this question? I really do. I am reading a stupid novel right now that kind of centers on the importance of a meaning to life and how sad it is for people that go through life with no meaning.

A lot of good replies and interesting viewpoints. I notice that those people who say there is no meaning in looking for meaning then explain how THEY found meaning.

The phenomenae is very human, normal, and common: "who am I", "why am I here", the "spiritual quest". A general unease and restlessness.

I suggest this has survival value. Given primitive, remote tribes, we need our young men to 'sow their oats' in distant villages, and not inbreed so much, for example. Women often find purpose in marriage/childbearing, for another example. The phenomenae does seem to be most common and strongest in young adults, does that sound right?

cesoid · 03-31-2003, 06:39 AM

Nowhere357, I can only speak for myself, but after I said there is no meaning in looking for meaning I didn't explain how I found meaning, I explained how I live my life. To me this "meaning" that people are looking for is an objective meaning, which I believe cannot exist, whereas, whether or not objective meaning exists, I will still have to actually do something during my life.

Unbeliever, if you look at dictionary.com's definition of nihilism you'll probably see why it often has a negative connotation. For example, sometimes it can refer to people who aspire to bring about a violent form of revolution.

I, in particular, would never call myself a nihilist, because the definition I'm most accustomed to refers to a person who places no value in anything. To me that's just impossible, people place value in things whether they like it or not, regardless of whether there is an objective meaning to life.

Unbeliever · 03-31-2003, 10:23 AM

Well, cesoid, try this link for a very good discussion of
nihilism
and this one for a bit more info.

Acording to this article, I don't think I can call myself anything other than a nihilist.

AdamWho · 03-31-2003, 02:49 PM

I don't think the statement, "Life doesn't have the property of meaning" is equivalent with the "Life is meaningless".

The first statement is an objective statement about the properties of Life in general and a statement about the category error of associating a meaning with life.

The second statement tends to be a personal statement of their feelings about their life.

Even though LIFE doesn't have the property of meaning doesn't mean that I personally don't have meaning in my life.

Correcting a category error is not equal to nihilism.

03-30-2003, 04:43 PM	#36
Unbeliever Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ca., USA Posts: 283	Meaning??? We don't need no stinkin' meaning!!! Wow! I sure am glad to know that I'm not the only nihilist around! BTW, why is it that nihilism has such a negative social stigma? It seems to me to be the only rational choice among a plethora of competing worldviews.

03-31-2003, 10:23 AM	#39
Unbeliever Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ca., USA Posts: 283	About Nihilism Well, cesoid, try this link for a very good discussion of nihilism and this one for a bit more info. Acording to this article, I don't think I can call myself anything other than a nihilist.

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03-13-2003, 05:29 PM	#31
cesoid Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: East Lansing, MI Posts: 5	I believe I agree with AdamWho in this matter, but I'd like to make myself a little more clear. I think that it is a mistake to ask for a "Meaning of Life" and that when you realize what you are asking for, you will also realize that the phrase "Meaning of Life" actually has no meaning. People only think that it makes sense because it makes sense to find a "meaning" or a "purpose" for things other than life. The purpose of my computer speakers is to synthesize sounds. But they only have this purpose because this is the motivation behind their creation. The speakers were made with the intention that they would synthesize sounds for somebody. You can't apply this to "life" because in this particular case, when people say "life", they don't mean one person's life, and they don't even mean "life" in general, they mean everything. Am I right? By asking for a meaning of life, people aren't trying to find why someone caused them to exist. If your parents had you for some specific reason, would you automatically adopt this as your meaning of life? No, and that's why I think that the question is a question of the meaning of everything. There can be no meaning of everything, because something only has a purpose when it is created for a purpose. No one can create everything, because you would have to exist before everything existed, which is a contradiction. But we must also address the psychology of the issue. Why do people want a "Meaning of Life"? My theory is this: There is a part of your mentality that is constantly evaluating other parts of your mentality in order to verify that they serve some purpose. Why are you pealing a banana? To eat it. Why are you shoveling the driveway? To get to work. But you will probably eventually get to the top, and ask, why am I living? There is no answer, which makes this part of your mentality uncomfortable. For some people, this part of them would much rather distort logic enough to accept some "Meaning to Life" absolutely, than to go on knowing that they can't have an answer to this question. It used to drive me crazy to think that there's no meaning to life. But after thinking about it for a long time, I realized that there's no purpose in trying to find a purpose for life. I stopped asking myself what I should do, and started asking myself what I was going to do. And what I was going to do was explore some things, work on some projects, and basically try to be happy.

03-17-2003, 07:08 PM	#34
cesoid Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: East Lansing, MI Posts: 5	Well cheetah, that's an interesting question. I'm not completely sure of the answer, even for myself, but it could have something to do with the fact that I was raised Catholic, and generally given the idea that "everything" has a purpose, because God intended some purpose for it. It turned out that this need for a sense of "ultimate" purpose stuck with me until well after I stopped believing in God. One of my friends who I went to Catholic high school with really feels this need for a purpose, but he wasn't really raised catholic before he started going to that high school in 11th grade. He and I, and a couple of my other friends, became very agnostic/atheistic our senior year. However, the friend in question recently became very Christian again. Like, fundamentalist type Christian. When I talked to him recently he reaffirmed how depressing he thought it would be for life to have no ultimate purpose. So, in my case I started religious and finished not caring about not having a meaning of life, and in the case of my friend, he started very not religious, became somewhat religious, became not religious again, then became very religious and feels very strongly that he needs to have a meaning to life. This says to me that it probably doesn't have to do with whether you were raised to believe in an ultimate purpose. No other reason for this seems to come to mind, and I definitely can't put my finger on what was going on in my head when it used to bother me.

03-17-2003, 07:28 PM	#35
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	cesoid This says to me that it probably doesn't have to do with whether you were raised to believe in an ultimate purpose. I tend to believe that the need for "meaning in life" has a lot to do with self esteem. Many people just extra stuff feel complete.

03-31-2003, 06:39 AM	#38
cesoid Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: East Lansing, MI Posts: 5	Nowhere357, I can only speak for myself, but after I said there is no meaning in looking for meaning I didn't explain how I found meaning, I explained how I live my life. To me this "meaning" that people are looking for is an objective meaning, which I believe cannot exist, whereas, whether or not objective meaning exists, I will still have to actually do something during my life. Unbeliever, if you look at dictionary.com's definition of nihilism you'll probably see why it often has a negative connotation. For example, sometimes it can refer to people who aspire to bring about a violent form of revolution. I, in particular, would never call myself a nihilist, because the definition I'm most accustomed to refers to a person who places no value in anything. To me that's just impossible, people place value in things whether they like it or not, regardless of whether there is an objective meaning to life.

03-31-2003, 02:49 PM	#40
AdamWho Contributor Join Date: May 2001 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 13,389	I don't think the statement, "Life doesn't have the property of meaning" is equivalent with the "Life is meaningless". The first statement is an objective statement about the properties of Life in general and a statement about the category error of associating a meaning with life. The second statement tends to be a personal statement of their feelings about their life. Even though LIFE doesn't have the property of meaning doesn't mean that I personally don't have meaning in my life. Correcting a category error is not equal to nihilism.

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