SimplyAtheistic

I suppose I shall play the devil's advocate here. Most people have an intense stigma against children and sex. Rightfully so, as most sexual encounters result in terrible damage to a child's entire life. This being said, I think that people should not disallow sexual relations when a child wants them. This of course would have to be completely voluntary by the child, and not coerced. After all, your body wants to reproduce as soon as you hit puberty, it is in your DNA. Where do you draw the line? How do you know that at 18 it is suddenly ok for someone to have sex? This is ludicrous. When a child wants to have sex, I suggest that they are allowed, but when they are forced to have sex, charge the attacker with rape, and send him/her to jail. Please remember I do NOT favor child molestation, I favor free thinking. Please use an open mind in an area of such taboo as this.
Jake

Debbie T

Thank you Keyser for keeping it in perspective of what really goes on out there. As much as PT would like to whitewash what really happens to children who are molested by adults, the reality is in your post.

And thank you for the work you did with children. I have a friend who is a social worker too and we are talking about this thread. SWs do not get paid enough for the important work of protecting children and helping families. Overworked, underpayed and working with a lot of people who consider SWs the bad guys is the norm for this job. I hope you find some more healing from what you had to deal with as I believe SWs experinece a lot of trauma by the work they have to do.

keyser_soze

My appreciation. It is a tough job, and to be honest I should have stopped doing investigation/interdiction after my first stint. I did stupid things too many times, before I realized that my sense of self preservation was totally gone. I was living too much for others, and not enough for me. So I hung up my hat, and started working in networks. It's much more peaceful, babysitting computers and the like. I rarely get angry these days, but I have constant nightmares about cases I had or assisted in. And as I already had trouble sleeping(insomnia), it just added to that. On the bright side, I make a ton more money, my ulcer is gone, and other than the occasional newscast that gives that "body dropping away" hate filled haze, I'm fine. Glad to be away from it. I'm sorry that I can't help directly, but I try to help when I can.

And Jake, show me a 6year old kid that "just needs to be fucked" and I'll show you the opinion of a 28-55year old white male with a shoebox of kiddie porn and a furtive glance. Trust me, I dealt with enough of them. We're not talking teenagers having sex. We're not talking puberty age here, go back and read the ENTIRE thread. He's proposing YOUNG CHILDREN, not teenagers or adolescents. Does the occasional 11 year old have a full-on need to get jiggy? Definately! Does an adult need to scratch that itch, just because it itches? What do you think?

keyser_soze

JJ, so as to save you the trouble of reading the several pages...


here is one of his last statements..

Now, your opinion.... does a 5 year old have the capacity to understand the ramifications of what is going on? Not any 5 year old I know or have ever met. My nieces and nephews are about that age. Mostly they just want the cartoons to not go off, and they want their favourite PJ's before nite-nite. Not a lot of em in for the bump and grind with young or old adults for that matter. Is it anyone's responsibility to scratch that itch(which apparently only exists in the mind of the adult and a few bizarre individual victims)? Be honest, leave every moral argument aside...what does your GUT tell you? My gut tells me that the sky is blue, hot stoves burn you, no fairy god exists, and raping children is wrong. I realize that you are plaing DA, but even the devil(were he to exist) would have limits, contrary to what dimwit fundys believe.

HelenM

So it wasn't your idea, in fact. So this doesn't prove at all that 5 year olds are thinking about sex and looking for it. Only that 18 year olds are. (And some - unfortunately in my view - consider 5 year olds appropriate sex partners)

...again the 18 year old is the initiator, not you the 5 year old.

Although he occasionally tested your resolve??? Most people call this coercion and manipulation.

I'm not going to try to make you say your experience was negative if you truly don't believe it wasn't. But neither am I, on the sole basis of your claim that your 5 year old experience was fine/pleasurable, going to decide that we should allow 18 year olds to go around soliciting sex from 5 year olds.

Helen

SimplyAtheistic

I agree about a 5 year old not being able to understand his/her wants completely. I was referring to teenagers, or more specifically people of my age. I am 16 and am told that sex with someone who is 18 is somehow a crime. I would like to know how the hell someone decided this for me. I am mature enough to engage in an activity and my body is mature enough to urge me to do so. This pisses me off, and I think some laws should be changed. I also think that many victims who experienced sex at the age of, say 13, and then later say they were so "hurt" by the experience, wouldn't be so hurt if society wouldn't tell them that they had experienced a horrible tragedy and they are filth for doing so. It basically boils down to willingness and the ability to discern what is right for you. A five year old probably couldn't decide what is best for him/her when they are that young, and then again there are many mature 8 year olds who could, but a kid who has been through puberty most likely can, and these fucking taboos hurt people more than the act itself.
Jake

keyser_soze

Actually, I think there are window laws in each state(within a certain number of years of each other, it is not considered a "fault" crime. I think it is 3 years in my state, but I don't remember clearly. We are on drastically different subjects than you are. As to 13 year olds, I think that is case by case, but I think outside the "window" it would be justified to put to jury. What person in their right mind is going to have sex with a 13 year old(assuming they are 18+)? You need to go back and re-read the thread. Neither I, nor anyone else has found a problem with teen sex( I partook of it myself very young, 13~14?). We are having a SERIOUS problem with pre-puberty sex abuse. And you should seriously take a look at some 5 year olds and see if you can do better than "probably couldn't decide". There is no probably involved. Again, puberty is a separate story, but it again goes into the physical safety of children, what person in their right mind finds it necessary to "assist" an 8 year old in scratching that itch?

SimplyAtheistic

I agree with you on many points. Pre-puberty sex abuse is a problem. But what if an 11 year old consents to sex with an 18 year old? I know many 11 year olds who are mature enough to make that kind of decision. Granted, a 5 year shouldn't be having sex, because in almost all cases they are incapable of making such a decision. But to your question "What person in their right mind is going to have sex with a 13 year old(assuming they are 18+)", I think there is no problem there. A 45 year old an a 21 year old aren't considered odd and grotesque for having sex, so what is the difference between an 18 year old and a 13 year old assuming the 13 year old has a degree of maturity? This kind of stigma is the exact problem with society. In fact, even I find it sick that an 18 year old could be with a 13 year old in a sexual relationship, but that is my emotions, and is not rational thinking. Having said all that, I still believe laws should be in place to prevent such things because though there may be a few cases where it is mutual consent and a pleasant experience, there are far more cases of abuse and horrible crimes. So really I agree with you about the law, but I think you should open up your mind to sex a bit as your past occupation has probably clouded your judgement with horror stories.
Jake

Debbie T

I don't think I have ever met an 11 year ol that I would qualify as being mature enough. Children only have one time in their lives to be a child and innocent from the world and the world of sex. Most of a lifetime is spent as an adult, with everything that comes with being an adult.

Personally I would like children to be able to enjoy the innocence of childhood for as long as possible. An eleven year should be out playing little league, riding bicycles for fun not exercise, skate boarding, playing with toys, and exploring the wonderous world around them with the eyes of innocence. No matter how mature they may seem their minds are still not developed enough to be out in the real world without protection and care of adults. It is why any normal, loving parent protects their children from pedophiles and other adults who would like to exploit them for sex or pornography.

Children are not miniature adults, their brains are not fully developed enough to comprehend many things we adults take for granted. To treat children as though they know what an adult knows is stupidity. It is why laws are in place so that children aren't forced into child labor for companies who would exploit a child for their own greed. Our laws are in place because we recognize the need for a child to go to school and play, so that they can grow up and be healthy, normal adults, instead of ones that Keysore describes in a previous post.

keyser_soze

As I said, I agree with the "window" policy. The reason 21 year olds and 45 year olds are not a problem, is because they are adults. I know 11 year olds with a college level intelligence, but does that mean that they are at that level accross the board? Maturity takes time and experience. There are exceptions, I have not denied this...But you cannot rule the majority, by using the example of the exception. If you find a 9 year old that is competent to say yes to sex, does that mean you should allow every 9 year old to be open season? You are looking too close at the problem, and missing the forest for the trees. Stand back and take another look at the problem. What are the ramifications, what are the results of legislation that would allow such a thing? Yes, I do have a strong emotional opinion, but that does not cloud my judgement. Think about the lives of these children. Does the capability of the single child you find that meets the criteria really justify the endangerment of every child that doesn't? You're playing high stakes poker on a large scale now, think about it from that perspective. That is the balance that must be reached. You think that the "no drinking under 18" is unfair? Think about the number of fatalities for drinking and driving for young adults. Scratch that, think about the number of plain accidents not involving alcohol amongst young adults...It takes time to mature. Any detrimental factor you add to the already dangerous game of "growing up" decreases someones chances of survival. Sure, I know a ton of people that were competent to drink at 14 or 15...does that mean that we should allow EVERY teenager alcohol? In another society, maybe, but not in ours...it's too dangerous. That is what decision making on this level is about, cost estimation. Those 98% of children under 14 who are not mature enough to consent to sex....what is their well-being worth? Sure we could lift the criminal predator laws on them, but what would be the result? Maybe in a utopian society such a thing could be done, but here's a newsflash, we don't. We live in a society where predators are common place, where murder is nightly garnish for our episodes of "friends". Our children MUST be protected, because they are all we have. We'll be out of power, they'll be us, and they'll create the next generation.

Do me a favor, and really consider what I'm about to give you as an exercise.

Think as an adult, I know you are close now, but there is still some more to come...Think as a parent. Think as a god if you choose to do so. Pretend that every child matters to you as much as your brother/sister, your mother or father. But more, because once you have children, they mean more than all of those people combined, they mean enough that you would voluntarily DIE so that they could live, indeed, you would die to avoid their suffering alone. They mean more than you know yet. Ask your own parents to tell you what you mean to them. Now, pretend that you are responsible for ALL of them. Every one of them...your decision affects every single one of them. I'll even give you an easy age group from Pat's perspective, even from the one you are see from now. Age 12. That is your goal. Every child, aged 12 in america right now. You know many 12 year olds, I'm willing to bet. Now, you have to decide, in one single moment, should they be fair game to every adult? Not the one or two you know that could handle sex, but every single one. You are responsible for their well-being in this matter. Do you think that you know the buttons to push so that you could get sex from them? You know you could easily convince a 12 year old to do anything you wanted, they are in awe of 16! They cannot even concieve of 30! Hey, a real life father figure for every girl! An all knowing, all powerful friend, every hobby and interest anticipated for every young boy! Do you not see the danger in this? Now, that one is not so tough, you could sway either way, but subtract another year. Then another. At what point does it go from the realm of possibility to absolute stomach churning fear? Don't think from the age of 16, think from 30...and from responsibility. Do you have a sister? Pretend you do, that she is 12. What would be your "rational" reaction to a 30 year old trying to have sex with her? Be honest, and think hard before you respond.