Debbie T

Sabine that was me that made that post. What I said was: " Perhaps I met them all since the worst human behavior and depravity I have observed personally in the last 50 years of my life has been Christians." That was after a comment from Amie about bad apples in every bunch. And that is the truth from my own experience. That is not from bias but from what I lived. No other faith or culture or group of people treated me as badly as Christians did. I only base it on my experience. You can accept it or reject it, it still doesn't change my experience. I did not however say ALL Christians are that way. You are reading in a lot more than what I said.

I am glad you have not experienced what I went through, I would not wish that on anyone.

spurly

As a Christian, this is one of the things that saddens me about the church. Jesus told us they will know we are Christians by our love, but often we as a church don't display it very well.

For those of you who have been offended, I'm sorry.

To those Christians who read this - let's follow Christ and focus more on loving God and others, and less on which branch of Christianity is 100% right - because none of them are.

Kevin

spurly

Liberated Goddess:

As a Christian, when other "Christians" come out in full hate gear, as in the response to Matthew Shepherd, it breaks my heart because I know it breaks the heart of God. People can not be hated into the kingdom - they must be shown that the door to the kingdom is opened with love and faith.

I am sorry that the view you are getting of Christianity is a view of people who love to hate, instead of people who love to love.

Just remember, we are not all that way.

Kevin

spurly

Yep. It takes mine away too. KJV was just a translation, like the NIV. Please don't let people like that cloud your view of God. He's not like that at all!

Kevin

Sabine Grant

Hello Lib.... sorry I attributed to you someone else's quote. I hope no harm done ((((( Lib))))))).

Debbie : thanks for clarifying. Indeed our view of people is based on what we experience with them. As Kevin pointed it, it is important to aknowledge that not all christians are the way you have experienced the ones who have crossed your path. You could have met Kevin for example and have a total different behavior ( I deeply relate to what he has posted).
What I was trying to express Debbie is that we must be careful to not stereotype based on our experiences. We can say " my experience with most christians I have met has been negative but I have not met all of them" but we have to be careful to not generalize to the point that we convince ourselves that there is no way any christian out there is capable of proper and loving behavior.
I totaly agree with Amie that you have good and bad apples in any social group.

As a christian myself I have experienced christians that sadden me about christianity. Some of us christians are the recipients of unloving attitudes from other christians. I have been condemned to hell several times because of my not abiding to one doctrine or the other. I just have to disregard legalism and dogma and focus on the individuality of each person.

Also to introspect a bit, we tend to think about how badly others treat us.... but how do we treat others? if we refocus on our own behavior, we may not be so disappointed and hurt by others' behavior.

Gregg

Well, Starboy, I understand your feelings, but let's not be too hard on Christianity all by its lonesome. Islam is at least as bad, if not worse.

Keep in mind, Christian fundamentalism is a relatively new phenomenon. Since the Renaissance and the Enlightenment, Christianity slowly had been getting more moderate, tolerant and progressive--there was less focus on doctrine and dogma and more on living a good, honest, productive life. Christians were seriously questioning their beliefs and were beginning to redefine the faith. It wasn't until the theory of evolution came on the scene that dogmatic Christianity roared back with a vengeance.

On the other hand, Islam, which once built fairly tolerant, socially and scientifically progressive societies, turned toward fundamentalism 400 years ago and hasn't looked back since. It's hard to argue that one can be a Muslim and NOT be a fundamentalist, since a Muslim must accept the Qu'ran as the literal word of God, dictated to Muhammad by the angel Gabriel. Christianity is a very diverse faith so it's possible to be a Christian without taking the Bible literally, no matter how vehemently fundamentalists may deny this.

Right now, I am much more concerned about Islam than I am about Christianity. This is because Islam is spreading in countries that don't have the moderating counter-influences that the West has developed since the Renaissance and the Enlightenment--science, reason, church/state separation, secular democracy, tolerance of diversity, etc. We are much better equipped to battle the spread of Christian fundamentalism than we are to resist the spread of radical, fundamentalist Islam.

Gregg

Starboy

Hi Gregg,

I can only speak about what I know. Since I live in a particularly fundamentalist Christian part of the US my peeve is with Christianity. Your point regarding Islam is well made. However your point regarding “moderate” religion IMO is not. It is my opinion that all supernatural religion is irrational. From such an irrational foundation it is much too easy for fundamentalism to take hold. I offer as evidence the current sad state of the world.

Starboy

Shake

I cringe everytime someone links to some Xian site or message board. Yes, they're usually making some circular argument or some other verbal gymnastics, but sometimes it's just the old "I know it 'cause God said it" kind of bullshit. I just personally can't take reading too much from any of those sites for very long. On rare occasions I do find myself chuckling at their stupidity, but it's also depressing to think that these people are so brainwashed by that bullshit that they can't see straight! :banghead:

[/rant] OK, I'm out!

Bree

If God isn't like "that" then why, when He's the ruler of the universe, can't He get a good spokesperson?

Debbie T

Your own bible says, " You shall know them by their fruits". I am not one that wants to go around judging people. But when I have continually been abused by a group of people. Stereotyping? I am not going to keep going back to get my head bashed against the wall, that's not stereotyping its called self preservation.

So I know them by their fruits. The fruits I have seen is teaching children the fear of hell, which I believe is abusive. I see fruits of groups of people constantly maligned by Christians. If its not homosexuals it is atheists or anyone that does not have the same belief system. I can go out on the web and do a random search for Christian sites and almost everyone has some slam against another group that does not believe the same. The very idea that they worship a god that they believe is going to sentence human beings to an eternity of torture does not in my opinion show any decent humanity let alone show love. To me the very idea of going to heaven to be with a god that is throwing most of humanity into hell would be like going to a party put on by Hitler. It would be like embracing Hitler and ignoring the evil he is doing to others. And throwing people in hell to be tortured for eternity is one of the most evil things I can think any entity could do to another.

I watch Christians denounce other Christians, I see the behavior of many in these forums, and I honestly do not see the "Christian Love" that they claim. Go to any Christian forums and Christians are slamming someone else, judging each other, arguing and using the bible as their weapon to destroy others with. Blaming all the problems on the world on one group or another and not seeing the log jam in their own eyes. Is this the way I want to live my life? Hell no. I will know them by their fruits and these fruits I witness are rotten to the core. There is not anything there that makes the religion attractive. They talk about their light and I see darkness. Not because of who they are but by the way they behave. It is not the way I want to behave.

I can say for myself that I do not treat others in the same abusive manner. I have healed the wounds with the help of therapy and a loving atheist husband plus a lot of painful hard work on my part. I no longer am hurt by Christians because what they do or say is about them and not about me. I avoid abusive people as I no longer feel I am not worthy to be treated well. I am worthy of being treated with respect and dignity. I know longer have self loathing because I am a sinner and not worthy of some diety in the sky that demands to be worshipped and said to love me. I am worthy of a much more perfect love than what this god is said to offer. I have gained self esteem and the manipulations of those who are abusive verbally or otherwise do not affect me anymore.

I tell my story because it needs to be told. Kevin is one of those rare ones that understood it and has not come back with a rebuttal that is judgemental.