SmashingIdols

Almost exactly my point:

a. the christian tradition did not really exist until the mid 4th century.

b. the rituals did exist throughout the pagan community - both Christmas (Mithras Sol Invictus) and Easter (feast of Ishtar or Isis)

c. the writings of the gospels that detail christs life were written in this timeframe with major influences of these "pagan" cults - in fact Paul was born and attended schooling in Tarsus, the center of Mithraism. An analysis of the Greek words he uses is revealing of his immersion in mystery religions of the time.

d. When you state that above, it is working from the assumption that some history or factual events survived before the melding of christain tradition with paganism. My viewpoint is that there is little history of said tradition, and that it grew into being from a slow mixture of the Jewish, Greek, and Roman traditions.

e. By the time of 300 AD it was apparent to the church leaders that they must somehow unite and orthodize the religion. The pagan holidays were nailed down to specific events in the now widespread story of jesus, complete with the recently written NT books (which were inspired by said events originally), texts that were contrary were culled, and a new religion with a wide-base was formed.

Typhon

I don't mean any disrespect, but I can't follow Amos at all.

He is not just incoherent, but seems, well, I don't know how else to say it, but raving.

Is he a regular? Does he always talk like this? It makes no sense, not even as language, let alone whatever ideas he's trying to communicate.

The only things I could figure out was he thinks something is significant about Easter, and Christmas, and the numbers 2 and 5 for some odd reason.

Easter AND Christmas, are straight up Pagan holidays. They predate Christianity by likely tens of thousands of years.

Numbers other than their use in math, have no celestial importance. You might as well believe that flies come from rotting meat, and frogs from mud, if you think numerology is anything but patent nonsense.

Any way, again I am not trying to be rude or insult anyone, but I can't figure out what Amos is talking about in the least.

? ? ? ? ?

.T.

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: Typhon ]</p>

Marduk

Amos is our resident poet. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

[ April 23, 2002: Message edited by: marduck ]</p>

Mageth

Mystical poet.

Amos: have you ever read Rumi? You'd probably enjoy him, esp. in some of the better (more lyrical) translations:

Our death is our wedding with eternity.
What is the secret? "God is One."
The sunlight splits when entering the windows of the house.
This multiplicity exists in the cluster of grapes;
It is not in the juice made from the grapes.
For he who is living in the Light of God,
The death of the carnal soul is a blessing.

Amos

Lovely poem about singularity. Notice that the trinity is disolved?

Amos

SmashingIdols

Amos - suddenly clarity came from within, I expurgated Mary from her frothy hell and you make gnostic sense!

Do not tie the roses to the inverted seventh monkey,
We are not likely to fray the cords of God;
Jesuit fruits were expunged from the physics of immortality,
and now the divine number is odd.

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Amos

HiSmashingIdols,the Jews do celebrate Passover in spring and Catholics also associate Passover with Easter but my objection is based on the details of the events because they show different.

Christmas is symbolic of rebirth when the Christ child is born unto us (while we are sinners). In the bible this is called born again to indicate that our firstborn is reborn. This means that the child we left behind when we became rational creatures (human beings) is reborn at this time. In this child we have the capacity to become God, very much in the same way as Jesus of Nazareth did (hence his final words "follow me"). Important here is that Christ was born but he was to be called Jesus instead of Christ to signify the dual nature of Jesus. One was Christ and the other was Joseph the Jew. Combined they were to be called Jesus and is why we can be brothers of Jesus.

With rebirth we become a new creation and this new creation is free from the conviction of sin because the law was given to Moses only for the conviction of sin in effort to find justification for rebirth (and thus not to stop sin). After rebirth we must come to this realization and if we fail to do this we will have killed our firstborn. If we do indeed come to this understanding metanoia will follow after the Magi arrive (Epiphany means Revelation). The unleavened bread is symbolic for this "no sin" concept and the word Passover is when the firstborn is supposed to be spared. Clearly this points at our Christmas celebration.

Notice that there is no "rising action" after metanoia which is when and where we will have reached the "end of our world" because purgatory begins at this time during our journey of life. Of course Mary becomes significant here because she is the major serpent (woman) of the TOK (subconscious mind) and is ours and will lead us through purgatory and towards Easter. Mary is a metaphor, as you may have guessed, but is also why she was taken from Man to be without a mind of her own (no sin and perpetual virgin).

Your solar alignment is wrong only from my perspective since Jews celebrate Passover in spring. Easter should be celebrated in spring and Christmas and Passover should be when the days are shortest but when the daylight hours begin to increase (awakening). Fall and Advent is when the days decrease to lead to the crisis moment on Christmas day.

Awakening is when we are able to extrapolate increasinlgly more light from the celestial light to make our days brighter (regardless of the sun because in the end the sun is no longer needed (Rev.22:5). Advent is when we can't seem to extrapolate enough light from the celestial light to make the sun bright enough to illuminate our days. Hence the sun stopped during our midlife crisis (advent).

Hope this is what you are looking for.

Amos

Well if you would rather have these monkeys make noises overhead until you die that will be your choice.

The divine number is 10 (one and zero) and 11 is when we are in harmony with God. 7 is the number for Passover, or at least is how passover should be. This is just past midwinter, midnight and midlife (666).

SmashingIdols

First I must say that I am surprised we are having some semblance of communication.

The poem was non-sensical, nevertheless I was sure you would extract some meaning.



Thanks for explaining your views.

I was totally aware of the significance of the firstborn being spared - and it is central to the spring theme. It is at the moment that day is once again longer than night that the firstborn is spared.

The newborn is fragile until spring - the days are still shorter than the nights. However, at passover the new sun is spared (the firstborn, or new Jesus) because now the Sun [son] has strength, the day is longer than the night.

Both traditions imply the same - birth during the darkness, the travel towards light gaining strength, and the eventual triumph of the newborn (or firstborn) at spring (passover)!

Examine the relationship to the Herod story as well. This holds true for both Israel and Jesus, after all Jesus was supposed to embody the whole of Israel, if he were to be able to fulfil his destiny.

Last note: Don't confuse any of these statements by me with any religious conviction, once again I believe the man is myth, there is no god.