Jayhawker Soule

Haven't a clue, other than what I've recently picked up from sites such as the one referenced by turtonm above. Please let me know if you come up with something of substance.

Anunnaki

I think this about sums it up.

RyanS2

If you want a full discourse on the nature of mithrainism, including refutations to the idea that Mithra is a newer God, check here:

<a href="http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm" target="_blank">http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm</a>

RyanS2

The fact that there are two almost completely different versions of the same text leads heavy doubt to the veracity of either text. The only thing the Arabic version shows is an Islamic viewpoint of the same text. The Muslims don't deny Christ, (how could they?) because Muhammad claims to be the one "prophecized" by Christ, and Muhammad had to add Jesus to the story because of a problem he ran into at the Kaaba. He successfully destroyed the 360 idols that were there, but there was something in there that he could not destroy, a painting into the Kaaba itself of Jesus and Mary. Thus, he had to incorporate these figures into his religion. So, it's not surprising that the 10th century version reads EXACTLY like the Muslims thought of Jesus.

Jayhawker Soule

On the subject of Mithra, yes it does.

-DM-

Perkins must be a REALLY special place if I couldn't pass even the first semester given that I entered college (University of Chicago) at age 16, passed out (by examination) of three of the required core courses, and graduated (Purdue) in 3½ years instead of the usual four. My guess is that if you want to find someone of your own calibre, someone who thinks his dialogue is superior to everyone else, you should probably talk to no one other than yourself. Certainly someone with your allegedly superior intellect shouldn't waste his time taking to "a total amature."

--Don--

-DM-

YOU were the one claiming what never happened. Don't you remember?

--Don--

Jayhawker Soule

Thanks for the link, although I'm not at all sure that the author of The Christ Conspiricy - Attacked by apologists and atheists alike! would be my source of choice. An alternate example might be:

<a href="http://cedar.evansville.edu/~ecoleweb/articles/mithraism.html" target="_blank">This Reference</a>

This link notes, among other things ...

... and ...

Which brings me back to my original question regarding the following:

The quote is (obviously) provided by Mr. Vermaseren. Can anyone confirm its source and accuracy?

[ January 23, 2002: Message edited by: ReasonableDoubt ]</p>

Haran

The Arabic Josephus might be a problem if it were preserved by Islam, RyanS2, but it may have been preserved by Arab Christians.

As a matter of fact, "Josephus' Testimony" seems to have been mentioned in a 10th century Arabic book written by Agapius, an Arab Christian. Certainly he wouldn't have removed the messianic reference to Jesus, yet he didn't know it...

<a href="http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/testhist.htm" target="_blank">Mystery of Josephus' Testimony</a>
<a href="http://www2.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/jesusand.htm" target="_blank">Jesus and Josephus</a>

It would be interesting to find out more about the history of this Arabic version of Josephus. If anyone knows the best sources, please list them.

Haran

lpetrich

Mithraism, like most other pagan mystery cults, had rather murky origins, and is mainly "documented" by the remains of its temples, which were usually caves or cave-like structures. I searched with Google and found several good pages on Mithraism rather quickly.

Central to its iconography was Mithras as a handsome young man killing a bull, but I don't recall a young man killing some bull being a central event anywhere in the Bible. Jesus Christ never kills any bulls, though he does kill some pigs and a fig tree. Also, there is an abundance of astrological symbolism in Mithraic iconography such as depictions of the signs of the Zodiac. Also, members would go through seven levels, each one identified with a planet:

Raven (corax): Mercury
Bridegroom (nymphus): Venus
Soldier (miles): Mars
Lion (leo): Jupiter
Persian (perses): Moon
Sun Courier (heliodromus): Sun
Father (pater): Saturn

However, the Bible is short on astrological/astronomical motifs, let alone multi-level initiation; the only one I can think of is Samson, who has been interpreted as a Sun allegory. And he is not a very important figure; more like some fun story.

By contrast, Jesus Christ is depicted as having been prophesied in the Old Testament, a.k.a. Tanakh; that his biographers had wanted him to seem prophesied is evident from the out-of-context nature of their quotes. There is nothing comparable in Mithraism, however.

In fact, the main similarities between Mithraism and early Christianity are relatively generalized things such as virgin-birth legends, sacred meals, and perhaps mystery cultism in general. So in summary, it's hard to pinpoint any specific influence one way or the other.

And to return to the original subject, virgin births and similar miraculous conceptions are a common part of hero myths, which is why Lord Raglan included that sort of origin in his Mythic-Hero profile. Even such historical people as Pythagoras, Plato, and Alexander the Great were reputed to have had deities as their biological fathers.