Freethought & Rationalism Archive

luvluv · 08-30-2002, 03:54 PM

Well, that's swell. I guess I need to get a book so I can understand it.

At any rate, is there any idea as to the first animal to actually have a gender? It seems like any of these cells with half their genetic info could combine with any other one.

My question is about what is the first animal to have a gender, such that it cannot reproduce with a fellow member of it's species with the same gender?

RufusAtticus · 08-30-2002, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:
My question is about what is the first animal to have a gender, such that it cannot reproduce with a fellow member of it's species with the same gender?

How do you see gender?

<ol type="1">[*]Is it based on penis vs. vagina?[*]Is it based on pole vs. hole?[*]Is it based on microgamete vs. macrogamete?[*]Is it based on separate mating types?[/list=a]

Our answer will be determined by your clarification.

Doubting Didymus · 09-01-2002, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv:

At any rate, is there any idea as to the first animal to actually have a gender? It seems like any of these cells with half their genetic info could combine with any other one.

My question is about what is the first animal to have a gender, such that it cannot reproduce with a fellow member of it's species with the same gender?

Luvluv, I think I answered this question in significant detail. In fact, you made responses to that post, albeit about mitosis. Did you read the whole thing? I even put a nice easy summary at the bottom, so you didn't have to.

Here it is again.

How specific genders evolved from hermaphodite organisms, in five easy steps:

Quote:

1) organisms benifit from having some larger and some smaller gametes.
2) after a time, the difference in size becomes so pronounced that we would call the different gametes 'sperm' and 'eggs'
3) both kinds of gametes would be produced on the same individual, so the organism frequently fertilises itself.
4) a population that has individuals that lean towards either egg production or sperm production would have more cross- fertilisation and less self - fertilisation, giving that population an advantage in terms of the variability of its offspring.
5) this tendancy towards one gender or the other would eventually result in organisms that are entirely of one gender or the other.

So becoming gendered was a gradual transition, and both genders evolved slowly and simultaneously. There would never have been a male that had no female to mate with.

Doubting Didymus · 09-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RufusAtticus:


How do you see gender?

<ol type="1">[*]Is it based on penis vs. vagina?[*]Is it based on pole vs. hole?[*]Is it based on microgamete vs. macrogamete?[*]Is it based on separate mating types?[/list=a]

Our answer will be determined by your clarification.

It was pretty clear to me that Luvluv is talking about specific mating types. Her question, in essence, is: 'what did the first male mate with'.

scigirl · 09-01-2002, 05:43 PM

Speaking of sex and gender. . . I noticed that some of you refer to Luvluv as a female - I thought Luvluv was a male. . .

Can you do us a favor and declare your gender? Thanks!!

Scigirl (XX)

luvluv · 09-02-2002, 09:58 AM

I'm all male. Luv was a nickname I got in college, and on my primary website my screenname must have at least 5 characters, so I just doubled luv. I use the same name everywhere.

Okay Doubting, I'm almost following you. Is there like a definitive text on the issue? I'd like to read into it.

Also, is this just conjecture or is there documentation that this is how it occured?

Doubting Didymus · 09-02-2002, 03:24 PM

I do not know of any definitive texts. Scigirl may be able to help you? However, many standard biology texts have chapters on evolutionary history, which are my sources for much of my posts here.

As for being conjecture, I suppose you could call it that, but 'hypothesis' may be a better term.

Certainly however, my examples are not just made up. All the phenomena I describe are well documented, and the idea of the evolutionary path I suggested was taken from my biology textbooks. However, we may never know the finer details of this history.

I do not know of fossil evidence that demonstrates our specific hermaphrodite ancestors, but as they would have preceeded even our fishy ancestors they would be difficult to link to our specific lineage. However, as is often done in the study of evolutionary history, we use living organisms as examples of what ancestral organisms would have been like.

Doubting Didymus · 09-02-2002, 03:26 PM

Looking back over this thread, I noticed that the lone ranger suggested a book containing a chapter on current theories of this kind. Might be a good place to start.

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08-30-2002, 03:54 PM	#21
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	Well, that's swell. I guess I need to get a book so I can understand it. At any rate, is there any idea as to the first animal to actually have a gender? It seems like any of these cells with half their genetic info could combine with any other one. My question is about what is the first animal to have a gender, such that it cannot reproduce with a fellow member of it's species with the same gender?

09-01-2002, 05:43 PM	#25
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	Speaking of sex and gender. . . I noticed that some of you refer to Luvluv as a female - I thought Luvluv was a male. . . Can you do us a favor and declare your gender? Thanks!! Scigirl (XX)

09-02-2002, 09:58 AM	#26
luvluv Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Planet Lovetron Posts: 3,919	I'm all male. Luv was a nickname I got in college, and on my primary website my screenname must have at least 5 characters, so I just doubled luv. I use the same name everywhere. Okay Doubting, I'm almost following you. Is there like a definitive text on the issue? I'd like to read into it. Also, is this just conjecture or is there documentation that this is how it occured?

09-02-2002, 03:24 PM	#27
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	I do not know of any definitive texts. Scigirl may be able to help you? However, many standard biology texts have chapters on evolutionary history, which are my sources for much of my posts here. As for being conjecture, I suppose you could call it that, but 'hypothesis' may be a better term. Certainly however, my examples are not just made up. All the phenomena I describe are well documented, and the idea of the evolutionary path I suggested was taken from my biology textbooks. However, we may never know the finer details of this history. I do not know of fossil evidence that demonstrates our specific hermaphrodite ancestors, but as they would have preceeded even our fishy ancestors they would be difficult to link to our specific lineage. However, as is often done in the study of evolutionary history, we use living organisms as examples of what ancestral organisms would have been like.

09-02-2002, 03:26 PM	#28
Doubting Didymus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: East Coast. Australia. Posts: 5,455	Looking back over this thread, I noticed that the lone ranger suggested a book containing a chapter on current theories of this kind. Might be a good place to start.

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