Ad Astra

Yes, I admit it, we atheists are such angry people. Just the other day I damned my best friend to eternity in Non-Hell for not going to my non-church. Then, after receiving a blessing from Non-God, I tied a "homo" to the back of my pick-up truck and dragged him thirty miles down a road to an abortion clinic where I murdered three of the employees. But it's okay, the "homo" and the doctors were all tools on Non-Satan, and I look forward to my great rewards in Non-Heaven.

Donjared

[edit ad hominem removed]
Ad Astra I think I get your point but do you really think Christians support that behavior? Maybe you want to think that we were cheering on the monsters you referred to, but nothing is further from the truth. As for the term Homo that you quoted me on, don't get to hung up on terminology. Its easier to write than Homosexual and its no different than calling us Fundies.
Straighthate, if you can explain a conscience naturally, please do. Perhaps you can point consciences out in our animal cohabitators as well.

ksagnostic

Very, very shallow Don Jared.

And your statements are based on some very questionable premises.

1) "Atheists" are a group who "hate" or are bitter towards Christians. The only thing atheists have in common is a lack of belief in god(s), and some are more adamant about that lack of belief than others. People in some countries (particularly the "Christian" USA) have gotten some real grief when it is discovered that they label themselves as atheists, Much of what you see (or more properly, what you seem to think you see) is reactive, rather than representing any deep seated animosity.

2) "Atheists" are uncharitable compared with "Christians". Absolute nonsense. If you really take the time to explore this board, you will see a diversity of personalities. Many of us are involved in, and even work directly in, causes that would be seen as "charitable". Since "atheists" are not an organized group for the most part (groups like "American Atheists" represent a small number of actual atheists), they tend to be involved in causes that attract people of varying faiths or lack of same. A large number of charities, and certainly some of the more effective ones, are secular in nature (which does not mean that they are anti-religious, simply that religious beliefs do not form the bases for their missions or operations). In other words, when people are "hurting", not all of them come to a church. Besides which, are you aware that there are "religious" organizations that actually welcome atheists sympathetic to their human ethics based philosophies (e.g., Unitarian-Universalists and Ethical Culturalists)?

3) Please spare all of us the nonsense that equates communism with atheism. The United States, btw, is a constitutional republic, and much of the success of this country comes from having a government that allows for a balance between popular democracy and protection of individual rights (and perhaps moreso a great deal of natural resources and relative isolative protection from the major "world" conflicts in Eurasia). "Atheism" was embraced by "communist" countries like the old Soviet Union and China because it was seen to be more compatible with state centered ideologies than theologies were. A visit to the Political Forum should make it clear to you that the self labeled atheists here subscribe to an extremely wide variety of political philosophies.

4) I noticed that you have posted again since I started on this reply with one of the most insulting cliches about non-theism around...the "If we are not created in the image of God/Transcendent Moral Authiority(tm) then we are simply just amoral beasts" argument. When this argument is brought up, it often comes down to dealing with a blindness that comes from incredulity on the part of the theist with the thought that humans are naturally capable of perceiving the effects of their actions on the well being of others without divine intervention or imprint. I have yet to see any theist successfully produce what I would call "put up or shut up" evidence that theists as a group are more consistent in the application of their values than self labeled non-theists.

Ad Astra

Some do, some don't.


What gives you the right to tell me what I want to think?


I don't see how writing six extra letters in that difficult. The word "gay" also suffices, and it only consists of three letters.


I've never heard of a Christian being beaten nearly to the point of death while his or her assailants scream out something to the effect of: "Die you stupid fucking fundy!"

Goliath

I don't hate you, I only hate your religion.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Godot

Blatant poisoning the well.
I see here the making of a no true-Scotsman fallacy Point taken, but it really is all semantics. When most atheists call certain religionists "fundies" it is simply meant as a simplification of the term. There is no pejorative connotation to the term. However, "homo" is an extremely emotionally charged term, as I'm sure you well know. To claim that it is simply being used as a timesaver is likely to be seen as somewhat disingenuous by most.
This is hardly a difficult matter. Our consciences are simply a reflection of our morality. My conscience will hound me if I do something that I knw to be wrong. I happen to call it cognitive dissonance.

As for demonstrating the existence of a conscience in an animal, that too is ridiculously easy. Have you never once seen a dog whine, or come to beg at your leg in an act of contrition? I'm sure if you would prefer to hear about the consciences of gorillas, you might be able to convince Biff the Unclean to expound on the matter. My apologies in advance to Biff for my presumption.

braces_for_impact

We are? Painting with a broad brush I see. You do realize that atheism is simply a lck of belief in god. That is the only thing that all atheists have in common.

What is a 'genuine realist'? How long have you perused our forums here? It occurs to me that there is a distinct possibility you are drawing your experience from a few short samples, because if you had investigated further, I fail to see how you could have missed how charitable, kind, and compassionate many people are here. Is there a possibility your mind was already made up about atheists, and that you came to this forum in search of evidence to support your conclusion?


It has also caused the suffering of BILLIONS, both in the past and in the present. If I kill two people but save three, does that make me 'good'?

Somehow I doubt that. Most of these 'charitable' organizations have strings attached. Usually this involves church attendance, or at least sitting around patiently to hear the "good word" from those that wish to help you. Even if this is not the case, do you deny the secular charities that exist, that also ask for nothing in return?

Yes, we do tend to all strut around here, congratulating ourselves on how smart we all are. But seriously, if you take a look around, you'll notice a lot of help, support and advice being put into words on this forum. Also, when people communicate, or even debate, there is much to be learned about others from such an activity. As to what I do in my own free time, that is for me to know. I will say this, I do more than put a ten percent tithe into a collection plate once a week.

I would be interested to know of your knowedge of church history, both accurate and 'perpetuated', in the proper forums. I am glad you acknowledge the current state of affairs involving religion, as it is truly frightening.

Yes, that is true, it is a human institution, and thusly reflects that in it's behavior. That's the rub though isn't it? If a church and it's followers truly have a perfect, benevolent god as their source for morality, we would at the very least, expect to see an average higher standard of ethics from it's followers. So far we have not. Simply saying "Well those aren't real Christians, Muslims, etc, simply will not cut the mustard.

I suspect if we were to weigh evil and good on a scale with respect to the church, it would not be all that off balanced to one side. Now, if I were receiving my moral system from a perfect source, I most certainly would put some emphasis on the bad, in order to deal with it.

I don't remember psychic powers being among the gifts of the holy spirit. So, if you're not psychic, how do you know what my motivation is for the emotions I display? Could it be that you are bigoted against atheists? Could it be that you were taught that's why atheists exist? Perhaps you are so involved in your religion, and use it to define yourself to such an extent that any questioning of this worldview puts you on the offensive? Am I being a psychic now?

I doubt many atheists here would say that religion doesn't have it's redeeming qualities. I am also immediately suspiscious of anyone or anything that claims to have the stranglehold on truth, and has to spell it in capital letters.

That all being said, I invite you to stay, maybe we can learn something about eachother if we both let go of any preconceived notions and approach eachother from an open perspective. Welcome.

orpheus last chant

Really? And poor silly me thought it makes for an inconsiderate post, not really in any desire for actual discussion.

Actually, I like the rhyme, don't you?

Please, take some time, breath, and look up empathy in the dictionary. To any reasonable person, it would be crystal friggin clear that it's impossible to do just that. Call me obtuse, I hate rhetoric, but are you here for disscusion, or hasty generalisations?

Me too. And guess what. I don't even need a reason to do it. I do it because I consider it right. What moral system is better. The one that expects the selfish gain of salvation, or one that does it, no matter what, even facing hell!

orpheus last chant

What people? Do you really think I need to hear how inherent my sinful nature is, when I'm down? Or perhaps that there is soemthing wrong with me because I cannot push a button and believe?
Yes, I go to my friends, and some of them are atheists. Atheist and Christian is a false dichotomy. Where do muslims go? To the church, hell no. To the mosque. In rough times, mroe people go. Why do you think that happens. Because the mosque is just another place people gather to feel the sense of community. However, one can feel that without the adjacent stuff, like religion. The local drama club can do the trick, if they are your friends.

Have you noticed that I do my best to write "Christians"? The local term for that is xians. It's much easier to write. But , for me, in discussion with a Christian, I have the curtesy to write that, correct it, because s/he might feel offended if I simply use xian.

And, it's my knowledge that Homo is somewhat insulting. But that's the empathy thing. Hey, even the Bible says soemthing about do not haste to speak. Hmmm...

Excuse me? Was that suppose to be funny? Oh, oh, can I do it too? Christianity has natural ramifications that go beyond just being a misanthropical misogynist if you want to.

Can I hold you to that? You see, it's my impression that "beasts" behave a lot better than we do. (P.S. - Read Mark Twain's Mysterious stranger). But I forget how antropocentric one gets when Genesis pretty much says animals are here at our own disposal.

Aaah, yes. Just think, trying honestly to fight the ick factor a lot of men have towards gays. Why, isn't your gut feeling saying "Hey man that isn't RIGHT" Whatever you don't like should be imposed on others, no? Morality should be whatever impulses we have, even though people aren't that similar?
While the monster atheist actually wants reasons! Morality that is based on reasons?! Good heavens, he's such a monster.


Conclusion: 1. Why don't you start by getting rid of the idea of whatever atheism is supposed to be according to you, and honestly ask us. Really now, what is it with some christians telling me who I am? If you want to know, ask.

2. You don't get to define what Christianity is. Tough, I know, but it's a clear case of No true scotsman fallacy. However, I know a clear, 100% guaranteed test, bilically based, that will surely point if you are a Christian or not. Care to take it?

trendkill

Yes, I do that too. And I also make a point of typing out "fundamentalist" as well. I have to disagree with whoever said "fundy" isn't a slur. It sounds like a slur to me, and that's not how I communicate.