hinduwoman

"The point I'm making is that the Aryan and Harappan cultures were different, as Hinduwoman does concede- one built the cities another composed the Rgveda."

Ans: No, what was being said was that the so called 'Aryan' culture is an earlier phase of Harappan culture.

"I do not heap scorn on either Dr. Kalam or Dr. Nandi (Ashis or Pritish? doesn't matter much, does it?) for trying to be schizophrenic in their religious affiliation".

Ans: And this is where the communists reveal their absolutist mindset. People, according to them should belong to only one category. Anyone who tries to break the stereotype is labeled schizophrenic because they do not conform to the abstract models built by theorists.
Incidentally insisting that people can belong to only one religion at a time is an Abrahamic concept.

hinduwoman

Sattwic --- is'nt there a Tamil legend that from the rhythm of Shiva's two drums emerged Sanskrit and Tamil?

Sattwic

The Drum of Nataraj with dual faces is a great Iconic symbol which represents the essence of the universe.
It represents sound as the first element in an unfolding universe, for sound is the first and most pervasive of the elements. The story goes that when Shiva granted the boon of wisdom to the ignorant Panini (the great Sanskrit grammarian), the sound of the drum encapsulated the whole of Sanskrit grammar. The first verse of Panini's grammar is in fact called Shiva sutra.
Maybe there is this legend of Tamil and Sanskrit emerging from the rhythm of Shiva's Drum, but I am not aware of it.

There is a wonderful language developed in S.India called the MANIPRAVA (diamonds and pearls)
It is a fusion of pure Tamil and Sanskrit.
This language was in vogue for some time and many scriptural-philosophical books were also written in this language.

Vedanta-Desika, one of the most celebrated Sri Vaishnavite Philosopher-poet wrote extensively in this language in addition to his pure Tamil and exclusive Sanskrit works.

This proves that long before the British infused a sense of Aryan-Dravidian divide and differences by their policy of divide and rule, Sanksrit and Tamil co existed without any kind of conflict...

Saiva Siddhanta, supposedly a Tamil Religion, has its roots in Kashmir Shaivism... and its scriptures based on both Sanskrit and Tamil primary Scriptures/Shrutis.

The clear absence of any record or indication of 'invasions' or 'Aryan - Dravidian differenciation' in Ancient literature is unexplained by the proponents of this fairy tale of fair Aryans invading the subcontinent in waves and waves of destructive hordes.

Amit Misra

I notice that when things start getting uncomfortable, we see a lot of digression. I start slanging that low-life, Savarkar-- Hinduwoman reviles communists and Hinduthvaite has another attack of textual diarrhea. Could we please get back to the point of this thread-- Is there a Hindu Left?.
To recap. Hinduwoman suggested that she identifies with a humanitarian philosophy of equitable distribution of resources and peaceful co-existence of different cultures. She said that she would not mind being described as a Hindu Leftist, but for "the baggage" associated with the term.
I said that the term Hindu (as defined, inter alia by Savarkar, Hedgewar, Golwalkar) has much more baggage to tote, and asked her to specify what she found particularly odious about the Left.
From then on, we sort of wandered away into digression. I apologize if it has been at my instigation (it hasn't as far as I can make out). But I'd like to put in a short thesis.
Hinduwoman, and others of her ilk, are mightily uncomfortable at the way the philosophy of Hinduttva has taken over civil space in India. Their chickens are coming home to roost: in Gujarat, at Ayodhya, at Dhar and several other places. Hinduwoman and her crowd of soft-Hinduttva Hindus are decent people. They do not like to see Modi et al use the confusion b/w religious Hinduism and political Hinduttva to unleash pogroms and strengthen the fascist aspect of the BJP. They turn longingly to some source of Liberal-Left consolation. They find, however, that the very sources they wish to turn to are those that their brainwashers have consistently vilified over the last 75 years. I am happy this is happening. These people are not like the dangerous morons who constitute the rioting hordes of Hinduttva. They are beginning to get disillusioned by the violence, uniformitarianism, totalitarianism, anti-feminism and authoritarianism inherent in the non-Abrahamic philosophy of Hinduttva. Let us welcome them back to the space that is Left of Centre. Let us watch them create a space that can be called the Hindu Left.
Amit

hinduwoman

Misra your rejoicing at the thought of the straying lamb is premature, because the core demands of people like myself remain the same:

1. UCC in civil affairs, no matter if it violates the sacred laws of any religions.
2. Minorities cannot demand special privileges simply by being minorities. No things like banning of books because it hurts their delicate sensibilities.
3. Any religious preacher who speaks of killing people of other religion, or who is proved involved in such activities to be punished. You can hit Togadia on the head for all I care, but the same goes for Islamic preachers in madrassas and mosques who say such things and for missionaries in NW.
4. Frank criticism of Abrahamic religions without being called communal. We Hindus have the right to ask Muslims to modify Islam so that we can feel safe and for Christian missionaries to stop proselytizing aggressively. Apologetics put forward by so called secularists make the situation worse.
5. As for communism, stop trying to peddle it as a solution because we have seen how spectacularly it failed in Kerala, West Bengal and Tripura. Aims might be noble but once it becomes an ideology, it displays all the defects of religion.

You see villification of left sources suceeded because the charges --- not open to what others say, hindu bashing, glorification of minorites in the belief this is true multiculturalism, refusing to condmen what the leftists are doing and had done--- were true.


Incidentally here is a Marxist analysis of VHP that is very interesting:


http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=299163

[QUOTE] The secularist is not recognised merely by his stance on the Babri masjid or the Shah Bano case or on terrorism. Instead, a secularist is anyone who listens to western music, eats in Italian restaurants or does not sport a tilak and dhoti. A secularist is an upper caste individual employed in a corporate job or the private sector.
… Today certain VHP workers claim a self-image akin to the revolutionaries of the French revolution, who guillotined the elite on the street. “Why do you accuse us of being violent? Didn’t the French kill their rajas and ranis?” Some VHP members say that their hero is Parashuram, slayer of upper castes. They speak of the need to fight the “new Brahmins”, who must be “fought because of their monopoly on English-language education, employment and access to international careers”. While the RSS may be made of genteel Brahmin patriarchs, the Shudra Hindutva of the VHP is a violent protest movement against all elitism, a social revolution aimed to snatch power from the speakers of angrezi and the wearers of bell bottoms. “Shudra Hindutva” is not only fiercely competitive with Muslims but also enraged at being left out of the new economy.
… The Congress has failed to understand OBC aspirations. The OBC parties led by Laloo Prasad Yadav and Mulayam Singh Yadav are in mutual competition with the VHP, but one only has to cast one’s eye at the chic Diggy Raja to the Scindia scion, to trendies like Aiyar, Soni, Alva and Nath, to realise that the leadership of the Congress is still suvarna and paternalistic. The restless new cadres powering their way into the VHP and the BJP cannot be won over by pointing them towards Kabir’s pluralism or the excellent bhajans of Mirabai. What they are looking for is a counter-identity that provides social status, seats in Parliament but, most importantly, the jobs and privileges of the English-speaking class. They may not ever get these jobs, but the VHP provides, at least, a place in the social sun. Togadia who grew up in an Ahmedabad chawl may never get to play tennis at the Delhi Gymkhana but being in the VHP has guaranteed him a place in a television studio. [QUOTE]


So which are the communists going to do now? Support the VHP as a proletariat revolution?

Perhaps you can give in detail why Savarkar is a low life, and why observations that he cannot comapre with Stalin and Mao is a digression?

Hinduthvaite

Friends,

Amit Misra tells Veer Savarkar is a low life because as per him Veer Savarkar lied and Fascists lie and So Veer Savarkar is a Fascist. Also we know from this great 'practicing scientist' that Veer Savarkar is also a coward and a racist. But he has not been able to provide a single shred of evidence. On the contrary I can quote Veer Savarkar passages after passage that this man was the first among the nationalists in the world to claim that race cannot be a criterion for nationalism and that human race from pole to pole is one.
There is nothing wrong in lying to an aggressor and of course Veer Savarkar lied to the authorities that he would renounce his revolutionary practices and continued to have secret contacts with Indian nationalists in exile particularly in Japan and later used this contacts to help Bose establish INA. It is on record by senior Congress Government administartors that a man no less than the Viceroy of British Government agreed that it was Bose's INA that really made British feel unsafe and brought the British to the idea of ending their empire. So Veer Savarkar's role in India's liberation is far greater than what has been recorded.
Nevertheless for Marxists swearology is a disease they are innately endowed with and of course use it to great effects. See Misra telling that Non-Abrahamic Indic systems are innately totalitarian undemocratic etc. I think this brings out the real person inside the cover of a 'rationalist'. He does not argue. He simply abuses. I also can say things like Marxism is actually a racist plot by upper elite to make sure poverty is used always as a tool in power games.

Hinduwoman,

Tamil scriptures consistently call Sivan as Aryan. There is a lot of documentary evidence which proves that racism - Aryan Dravidian aborgines race theory is a missionary construct for dividing the society on pseudo-scientific racial lines and fascilitate conversion. Marxists have always taken a missionary position when it comes to dividing Indian society (remember Communist Party of India accepted the Muslim Leagues demand for partition on the ground that nations have a right for self determination thus effectively agreeing to the Jinnah's idea of two nations)

Amit Misra

hinduwoman wrote:
I agree. Would you, (or what's more important, the Hinduttva Hordes) agree to a provisio to bring Ayodhya into the ambit of civil disputes? Where a mob destroyed property in 1992 and deserves to be punished for it?
I don't agree. Minorities desrve special privileges by virtue of being minorities. Your view seems majoritarian rather than democratic to me. As for banning books, I agree. No book should be banned, regardless of whose sensibilities it hurts.
I agree. Include in this a similar provisio to punish the political activist who preaches anything like killing people of other religious convictions/ political persuasions; or even less drastic steps such as marginalizing, ostracizing, economic boycotting, etc. of groups of people based on their religion or politics.
I agree. Why not include non-Abrahamic religions within the criticisable? Not important, though. Criticise them to hell and gone. Write another Rangila Rasul and I'm with you. Just don't turn all prickly and offended when I or someone else does the same to a Hindu legend.
I don't agree. If I arrogate such a right to myself, I shall be mutatis mutandis granting a right to the Muslims to ask me to modify my atheism so that they can feel safe from the scurrilous stuff I am likely to dish out about their religion. Does the Gandhian position appeal to you; where he says that reform of Islam is solely the business of Muslims, as is the reform of Hinduism solely the business of Hindus? I can quote chapter and verse, but take it from me, its in Young India of 1928.

I don't agree. Similar argument. Let a million flowers bloom. Let them persuade, bribe, fool or entice people to be christians. You and I should blow our trumpets louder if we feel that we have a better scheme to offer, but we can't ask the State to stop someone blowing a trumpet.

I plead not guilty to the charge of peddling communism; either as a solution or anything else. I am, after all, a mere fellow-traveller of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist revolutionary. I'd be scared stiff if their revolution actually took off. I'd be among the first of the decadent bourgeoisie to be liquidated.
However, the far-from-communist Left governments haven'tfailed all to spectacularly in the 3 states you mention. Human development indices of these states are reasonably good. Land reform in West Bengal is quite impressive. Yes, these states do not have a high degree of Capitalist Industrialist activity, but isn't that a success for their ideology? Just kidding...
The allegedly "Marxist" analysis of the VHP is quite incomprehensible to me. I'll probably check out the URL to find out why you call it a Marxist analysis, but prima facie, there's nothing I can see about it that is Marxist.
As for Savarkar the coward and murderer, I'll try to post a new thread soon.
Amit

hinduwoman

In theory I am all for punishing those who brought the mosque down. But whom are you going to arrest and what punishment are you going to give? One can arrest Advani, Rithambara I suppose, then there will be argument about how much responsibility they have and what their punishment should be. And of course it will have the added effect of popularizing them even further.

So you think my stand is majoritysm instead of democratic, and I think your stand is minoritysm instead of democratic. Ok let us begin by defining what we mean by privileges. What do you want to give them?

Agree completely on third point, though it is obvious we are expecting to get different types of politicians and religious leaders to be booked under this.

Non-Abrahamic religions are already thoroughly bashed in India, while intellectuals seem to think criticism of Koran and Christianity is taboo. Criticise a Hindu legend all you like (provided it is based on original sources than what someone said about it): but don't get offended when I call Muhammad a bloodthirsty paedophile whom the Muslims need to dump as soon as possible.


Atheists do not go out killing people in the name of atheism. At most they indulge in verbal slanging match. On the other hand, Islam has a tendency to get very physical. My problem with Islam is its holy books teach that non-Muslims, specially polytheists must be either killed or converted by force. A Muslim who wants to live in peace with his neighbours is a bad Muslim. That is precisely why I object to having pious Muslims: let them become like Bohras or Ahmediyyas, or simply forget about the verses and I know I don't have to fear for my throat. In fact, it is precisely because Islamic states are being good Muslims, that they are in such a mess.
As for reforms in Muslim community being their business, let me see. When the Muslim Women's bill was passed there were Muslim divorcees in the street marching to protest, Muslim women's group vehemently protesting, some male professionals also protesting, Arif Khan resigning, 1500 Muslim women chaining themselves to the Parliament walls --- but I guess not being bearded clergy they don't count as members of Muslim community, eh?

Let a thousand flowers bloom then. Then let Hindu organizations copy the methods of the missionaries exactly, without having to hear about whinings about how they are distorting the essence of Hinduism and majority bullying.

Amit, have you ever actually went to any of these communist states, particularly Tripura or West Bengal? Or did you just rely on govt. statistics? Just actually go there and see the violence, insecurity, oppression and poverty people suffer from in the rural areas. And if their ideology is such a success why are they going to Capitalists with a begging bowl to invest in their state? These states explain very well why USSR collapsed.

I called the analysis Marxist, because it regards the VHP as a class movement against the upperclasses.


P.S: Arif Khan was the only politician I know who actually resigned his ministerial berth on principle. The fact that no NGO or so called progressives has thrust him into prominence, and our newspapers never mention him, speaks volumes about the intellectual atmosphere of our country and explain why Indian politics are not getting cleaned. :banghead:

Amit Misra

I, or rather the State, should arrest those against whom there is prima facie evidence of having exhorted and encouraged communal division b/w different communities. Although I'm not competent to comment authoritatively, I suggest the following names that top my wish list: LK Advani, MM Joshi, Narasimha Rao, Ritambhara, Uma Bharati, Abdullah Bukhari, Zafaryab Jilani et al.
Those found guilty should be punished as per the penal code and code of criminal procedure. I suggest they should be shut up in one room together for several months, with no access to communication media....
1. Privilege to advocate their faith or lack of it in mainstream society (including newspapers, TV shows, public functions, official functions, etc.). With the intention of gaining more adherents to their faith or lack of it.
2. Affirmative action to ensure that the way they live their lives is not subsumed within the way of life of the majority, PROVIDED it does not hamper civil society. For example, if a hypotheitical minority have a strange tenet that says that its adherents must urinate against a mango tree on every wednesday, the State must not discourage them from doing so; PROVIDED that they don't make a nuisance of themselves for other people living nearby. Affirmative action in this case could be the planting of an orchard on public land for the dual purpose of getting fruit and letting the urine flow. Zany example, but I didn't want to bring in cows, pigs, wars and witches into this.
3. Privilege to special protection against onslaughts by the majority, whether these onslaughts are cultural (books, films, TV shows, etc) or physical (intimidation, assault, massacre). I'll expand on this theme later. Bye for now.
amit

Amit Misra

Protection from onslaught (cont'd) : The civil State has built-in safeguards against hegemonistic onslaughts of one or the other kind of world-view; unlike the Stalinist State (notice, I can blaspheme against Stalin, at least!). Stalinist and Fascist States, on the contrary, enforce one kind of world view. For a democratic State, I think it is important to incorporate in its rules some way whereby the weak shall be protected from the strong, if the strong suddenly decide on hegemony. What forms can such safeguards take? Job reservations in govt. departments? Repugnant from the point of view of meritocracy, and far too amenable to corruption as evidenced by our recent history. Tax exemptions and subsidies for minority-specific religious activity? Probably. I haven't given it much thought. Whatever form these safeguards may take (and better minds than mine will have to apply themselves to the issue), I maintain that democracy does not mean the despotism of numbers: it means accomodation of dissent, differences and alternative lifestyles through concessions offered by the majority to minorities.
There are other goodies that I would want a democratic State to offer its minorities. I haven't made a comprehensive list, but put me in the constituent assembly that's going to make our new constitution and you'll find out!
One last thing:
In WB, I have been to Calcutta (or is it Kolakata ?), Barddhaman, Siliguri and Darjeeling and for reasonable lengths of time (3-100 days). Further, since aami ektu-ektu Bangla bolte pari, amar experience onek bibidh chhilo
Darjeeling and Siliguri in 2001, when election campaigning was in full swing. My wife and I were there as tourists. We travelled from NJP to Daj by Commander Jeep: 14 people in 1 jeep. We saw a bit of hooliganism by CPM and Trinamool cadres. We also saw a lot of heartening incidents of political discussions at streetcorners, no loudspeakers and no big-time leadres: local people talking their heads off. Animated but not violent.
In other soujourns, I had occasion to meet some real, live commies. One of them has left a strong impression. He told me- "Who says we're bringing in communism? We are operating within the ambit of the constitution of a bourgeois democracy." I sort of thanked goodness that such was indeed the case, but it stuck. Only the politicians are communists- the State is bourgeoise! Much like the NDA-- only the politicians are Fascists, the State is bourgeoise...
Guess such sophistry won't be appreciated, but what the heck. I also know it doesn't answer your question satisfactorily. One short riposte. WB is no worse off than any of the states in the Cow belt. From what you can gauge from the way rural folk dress, how much a twist of jhaal-muri costs and what it contains, how much fresh vegetables and fruit cost, how many people in a bus read (and what they read), etc., it is certainly a bit better off than Eastern and Central UP, Uttaranchal, Orissa, Bihar, East Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Central Maharashtra, etc. etc.