Vorkosigan

le this might explain how we produce verbal reports on our internal states, does it tell us anything substantial about why there should be a subjective experience behind these reports?

Subjective experience is extremely useful for advancing the interests of the individual in social competition with other individuals for mates, resources, social status, etc. Hence the reason for its evolution.

Michael

excreationist

phaedrus:
I've haven't read much about it, but I think the Thalamus plays a central role in consciousness
<a href="http://www.phil.vt.edu/assc/newman/" target="_blank">Thalamocortical Foundations Of Conscious Experience</a>
This talks about some of Koch's and Crick's theories as well as those of other people.
I think these central places are necessary for consciousness, but for intelligent consciousness you'd need to have a large set of learnt patterns - i.e. lots of extra neurons for long-term memory. They limbic system would also be involved for emotional responses. (I think that a motivational system is necessary for consciousness/awareness).
Consciousness implies human-level consciousness - this implies knowledge of language and this would require a lot of brain space. And consciousness would usually involve the visual world - and the visual cortex is huge... I think the central part of the brain processes highly processed data - it can't handle raw data. You basically need the most of the brain I think - it depends if you want them to have full human consciousness (Piaget's "Formal operational stage") or basic sensorimotor awareness.
NCC isn't clear which one it is talking about.... If it is talking about basic awareness then even animals like birds have that.

excreationist

I've restarted typing this post from scratch a few times...
my latest idea is that an aware system has idiosyncratic self-learnt beliefs and goals. Since they are idiosyncratic, they are personal or "subjective". And they are constantly being updated since it is seeking its goals and its relationship to its environment is constantly changing. I think that visual experience is a kind of belief except that it is very immediate - regular beliefs are just predictions of information - and experiences are the information stream itself. So I think subjective experience is an information stream, which is perceived in an idiosyncratic way because of the aware systems current goals and beliefs.
I think the reason visual experience seems so real is because the information is compressed - there is no redundant information. e.g. if we saw vision as a picture with lots of visual numbers, this would be very redundant... since you'd only be able to represent a low-res picture because of the large size of the numbers.

Laurentius

AVE
I can't believe myself. I joined this restless forum to check how strong my Nihilism was (well, my Humanist Nihilism), and now I ironically end up supporting a Dualist view.

Before taking my time to give some specific responses, I want to mention that no point in my FAQ has been devised by me, it has all been borrowed from phylosophy dictionaries.

I will now quote definitions picked up from the Internet, showing clearly enough (I hope) the limited scope of Materialism and the intrinsic Dualism of any type of phylosophical Humanism:


MATERIALISM

Materialism,
in philosophy, a widely held system of thought that explains the nature of the world as entirely dependent on matter, the fundamental and final reality beyond which nothing need be sought. (Encyclopedia.com)

What is Materialism?
Materialism is the modern day philosophy that holds that matter and the material world are all there is, or more modestly, that matter is the fundamental reality from which everything derives. The materialist says: "If you can't see it, touch it, smell it, taste it or reduce to something you can, it doesn't exist." For the consistent materialist, human beings are merely complex machines and not spiritual beings or significantly free moral agents.

Materialism is endorsed by many (but not all) contemporary Western intellectuals, and doubted by most everyone else. Nevertheless, materialists enjoy a disproportionate amount of influence and control over research resources. Since Darwin, many have claimed that science is itself a materialistic enterprise, but we don't buy it. Neither did Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler, Newton, or Maxwell. (Discovery Institute)

Materialism in philosophy, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them.
The many materialistic philosophies that have arisen from time to time may be said to maintain one or more of the following theses: (1) that what are called mental events are really certain complicated physical events, (2) that mental processes are entirely determined by physical processes (e.g., that "making up one's mind," while it is a real process that can be introspected, is caused by bodily processes, its apparent consequences following from the bodily causes), (3) that mental and physical processes are two aspects of what goes on in a substance at once mental and bodily (this thesis, whether called "materialistic" or not, is commonly opposed by those who oppose materialism), and (4) that thoughts and wishes influence an individual's life, but that the course of history is determined by the interaction of masses of people and masses of material things, in such a way as to be predictable without reference to the "higher" processes of thought and will.


HUMANISM

Humanism is a philosophy which in most cases embraces Agnosticism or Atheistic belief about the non-existence of a deity. But it goes further to create ethical systems based upon reason and logic. It regards humanity as the measure of all things. Humanists emphasize a belief in the importance of doing good in society.

What is Humanism?
Humanism is a philosophy of joyous service for the greater good of all humanity in this natural world and advocating the methods of reason, science and democracy. There are ten central propositions in the Humanist philosophy.
First, Humanism believes in a naturalistic metaphysics of attitude toward the universe that considers all forms of the supernatural as myth; and that regards Nature as the totality of being and as a constantly changing system of matter and energy which exists independently of any mind or consciousness.
Second, Humanism, drawing especially upon the laws and facts of science, believes that humans are an evolutionary product of the Nature of which we are a part; that our minds are indivisibly conjoined with the functioning of our brains; and that as an inseparable unity of body and personality we can have no conscious survival after death.
Third, Humanism, having its ultimate faith in human beings, believes that we possess the power or potentiality of solving our own problems, through reliance primarily upon reason and scientific method applied with courage and vision.
Fourth, Humanism, in opposition to all theories of universal determinism, fatalism, or predestination, believes that human beings, while conditioned by the past, possess genuine freedom of creative choice and action, and are, within certain objective limits, the masters of their own destiny.
Fifth, Humanism believes in an ethics or morality that grounds all human values in this-earthly experiences and relationships and that holds as its highest goal the this-worldly happiness, freedom, and progress--economic, cultural, and ethical--of all humankind, irrespective of nation, race, or religion.
Sixth, Humanism believes that the individual attains the good life by harmoniously combining personal satisfactions and continuous self-development with significant work and other activities that contribute to the welfare of the community.
Seventh, Humanism believes in the widest possible development of art and the awareness of beauty, including the appreciation of Nature's loveliness and splendor, so that the aesthetic experience may become a pervasive reality in the life of human beings.
Eighth, Humanism believes in a far-reaching social program that stands for the establishment throughout the world of democracy, peace, and a high standard of living on the foundations of a flourishing economic order, both national and international.
Ninth, Humanism believes in the complete social implementation of reason and scientific method; and thereby in democratic procedures, and parliamentary government, with full freedom of expression and civil liberties, throughout all areas of economic, political, and cultural life.
Tenth, Humanism, in accordance with scientific method, believes in the unending questioning of basic assumptions and convictions, including its own. Humanism is not a new dogma, but is a developing philosophy ever open to experimental testing, newly discovered facts, and more rigorous reasoning.

Human beings, using their own intelligence and cooperating liberally with one another, can build an enduring citadel of peace and beauty upon this earth.


AVE for now

Laurentius

AVE Excreationist,
Here we are again, back to our issue of will and reflectivity.

I do not have my own definitions (yet?), so I can offer you only what has already been determined in the field:

WILL

Will (philosophy and psychology), capacity to choose among alternative courses of action and to act on the choice made, particularly when the action is directed toward a specific goal or is governed by definite ideals and principles of conduct. Willed behavior contrasts with behavior stemming from instinct, impulse, reflex, or habit, none of which involves conscious choice among alternatives. Willed behavior contrasts also with the vacillations manifested by alternating choices among conflicting alternatives.

Modern psychologists tend to accept the pragmatic theory of the will. They regard the will as an aspect or quality of behavior, rather than as a separate faculty. It is the whole person who wills. This act of willing is manifested by (1) the fixing of attention on relatively distant goals and relatively abstract standards and principles of conduct; (2) the weighing of alternative courses of action and the taking of deliberate action that seems best calculated to serve specific goals and principles; (3) the inhibition of impulses and habits that might distract attention from, or otherwise conflict with, a goal or principle; and (4) perseverance against obstacles and frustrations in pursuit of goals or adherence to principles.

To me will then seems an ability at the opposite end of what a computer program could do, no matter how sophisticated that would be, since the machine's abilities would barely resemble even basic human instincts, impulses, reflexes, or habits - all of which being radically opposed to will, anyway.

REFLECTIVITY

Since I've failed now to find something on the Internet, I will temporarily define reflectivity as the capacity an entity endowed with reason to think about the process of thinking so that it can analyze both its own and other entities' thinking activity in order to achive the results of the goals decided upon by its will.


HUMANISM

Humanism is more than just an attitude or a principle. It is a phylosophical view. Since it rejects religion, affirms the importance of human will and militates for a better world built upon the human reasoning and reflective capacities, Humanism makes a Dualistic approach to existence.

AVE


[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Laurentius ]</p>

Laurentius

AVE Malaclypse the Younger,
I have not defined Humanism myself, I have only searched for definitions. The ones I used for my initial (FAQ) post were taken from "Larousse", but as you can see, definitions from the Internet show the same thing: Humanism is intrinsically dualist.


Proof that the mind is organized by different laws than matter? Here's one:
Among the first to lay the foundation for the new behaviorism was American psychologist Edward Lee Thorndike. In 1898 Thorndike conducted a series of experiments on animal learning. In one study, he put cats into a cage, put food just outside the cage, and timed how long it took the cats to learn how to open an escape door that led to the food. Placing the animals in the same cage again and again, Thorndike found that the cats would repeat behaviors that worked and would escape more and more quickly with successive trials. Thorndike thereafter proposed the law of effect, which states that behaviors that are followed by a positive outcome are repeated, while those followed by a negative outcome or none at all are extinguished.

Here's another:
Gestalt Laws of Grouping
The three founders of Gestalt psychology were German researchers Max Wertheimer, Kurt Koffka, and Wolfgang Köhler. These men identified a number of principles by which people organize isolated parts of a visual stimulus into groups or whole objects. There are five main laws of grouping: proximity, similarity, continuity, closure, and common fate. A sixth law, that of simplicity, encompasses all of these laws.

Although most often applied to visual perception, the Gestalt laws also apply to perception in other senses. When we listen to music, for example, we do not hear a series of disconnected or random tones. We interpret the music as a whole, relating the sounds to each other based on how similar they are in pitch, how close together they are in time, and other factors. We can perceive melodies, patterns, and form in music. When a song is transposed to another key, we still recognize it, even though all of the notes have changed.

Argument from ignorance: From the definitions quoted in the posts above, it is obvious to me that rigorous materialism inevitably leads to determinism, which denies the power of human will and reflective reasoning - and that is why I was saying that materialism fails to provide a satisfactory explanation of these.
AVE

Laurentius

AVE NialScorva,
I'm surfing through definitions right now, as you can see.

...and BTW, our feelings about what we are, say Materialists, may not correspond to what phylosophy has already defined as being Materialism.
AVE

Laurentius

AVE John Page,
Your observation was:
My answer is:
I never said that there was no difference between the mind and the matter. Can you say that two siamese siblings represent one and the same entity?

Further you said:
I think it is an interesting idea. Yes, I may agree to that.

And you ended:
I couln't agree more. However, the lack of unity within this new concept renders it so frail that I tend to be a Nihilist.
AVE

John Page

Laurentius:

The italic emphasis above is mine. How does determinism deny such? Please compare:

1. A piece of wood. The wood exercises no free will and we are unable to detect a sensory system or a motor system in a piece of dead tree.
2. A cat. The cat has a nervous system and displays certain characteristics of consciousness as I not earlier in this thread. The cat is free to move physically and its nervous system/conscious mechanism can interact with reality to have more outcomes than a piece of wood. Thus, the cat has greater free will than the mote but not absolute free will.
3. A human being has more langauge capability than cats and has an ability to plan more complex individual and group actions. The greater freedom to act (compared with cats) gives humans a greater free will.

We are reflectively reasoning right now. We are doing this through our material being. Our mind is studying itself as we think on these metaphysical topics. If you can predict the behavior of the system you are studying, it will appear to have no free will. I think the concept of free will as an absolute belongs in the "nice concept" catergory along with "god" and "absolute truth".

What's not to like? (By the way, I did like the Bart Simpson gif, - it portrays very accurately my attitude toward free will - very determined! )

Cheers.

[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: John Page ]</p>

Laurentius

AVE Franc28,
I knew I was not going to convince you, but that was not my intention since I don't think we are here to persuade (not to mention "enlighten")each other on one issue or another.

Humanism seems self-imposing to me.
I also feel that the lack of conciliation between the principles of its Dualism tends to push me toward Nihilism.
AVE


[ March 05, 2002: Message edited by: Laurentius ]</p>