Seraphim

"You support Quantum Physics, yet it contradicted with your karma teachings. Quantum Physics indicated that when a matter gets enough energy, it will leaps into the next "stage" - ladder of energy level and continue "leaping" from one energy state to another till it runs out of energy.
Reincarnation is suppose to be ETERNAL until enlightenment."

My reply : THAT is because you assume that in every life a person take, he will go FORWARD. What is the use of Karma if he can keep going forward?

In Quantum Physics, an atom could INCREASE or DECREASE it's ions (negative or positive charges) by either absorbing energy or releasing it's energy. You are assuming that the Atom only do one thing - either absorb energy to become the next element or release energy to become nothing (lowest is Hidrogen in periodic table, is there anything lower than that?)

Quantum Physics didn't make mistake nor did Karma here nor did my explaination. You didn't link it properly.

excreationist

Does this mean that their NDE involving Jesus was just a dream rather than their "soul" actually going to a different spiritual dimension? (since you say that Jesus doesn't exist at all)

Only the parts of my personality that require those memories would no longer exist (but still exist in the past)... the other aspects of me, such as my bodily sensations, body, knowledge of language, etc, could continue to exist.

You said that you think our fear of death partly or mostly comes from past life experiences... I think a better explanation is that we just fear pain and the loss of security (leaving our own lives - which I don't think other animals can fully appreciate).

Perhaps all you are accessing is intuition... it is how animals reason - weighing things up emotionally, without language.

Well have a look at the <a href="http://www.alpinecourtmemorycare.com/pop_ups/stages.html" target="_blank">stages of Alzheimer's disease</a>.
They lose a lot of control over their bodily functions too, but they also have memory, concentration and language problems... and they might also hallucinate, etc.
Most people would say that Alzheimer's affects the mind. e.g. see this <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=%22Alzheimer%27s%22+mind" target="_blank">Google search</a> for "Alzheimer's" and "mind" which returned about 200,000 results...
It looks like you are insisting that the mind is indestructable so therefore Alzheimer's doesn't damage the mind.

Another alternative is that the system of Karma was designed... assuming that it exists.

What survival advantage does the existence of Karma offer?

I sometimes like to pop in every now and then. It is kind of a habit. It makes me feel good sometimes to participate in these discussions...

Jamie_L

Okay. Let's take your definition of brain-dead. Let's say someone suffers an injury. They are unconscious but alive for 5 minutes. Then their brain goes "off-line" for 10 minutes (by your definition, they are brain-dead for 3 of those minutes). Then they are revived, a process which puts the brain back on-line for 5 minutes before they regain full consciousness. Then, the person claims an NDE.

My point is that the supposed NDE could have occurred during the first 5 minutes. It could have occurred during the first 7 minutes of the brain being off-line. It could have occurred during the 3-minute "brain-dead" period. Lastly, it could have occurred during the 5 minute period after the end of the brain-dead period. However, because there is no time reference for the individual during the experience, they have no way of knowing when the experience occurred. Because the experience is purely internal, external observers cannot determine when the experience occurred.

Thus, there is no evidence to suggest the experience actually happened when during the "brain-dead" state, or even in the other "off-line" period. It could just as easily have occurred just prior to or just after "death".

Jamie

Philosoft

All perfectly consistent with evolution.

Large, complex cerebral cortices for one.

"Beyond the normal evolution [sic]," eh? Do you have access to some evolutionary capability chart that you might share? Preposterous, indeed.

Like beaver dams?

I will count monkeys and chimps, thank you. And <a href="http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0808_020808_crow.html" target="_blank">crows</a> for that matter.

I'm going to keep saying this until it smacks you in the forehead: e-v-o-l-u-t-i-o-n

<strong> No, the reason we are contradicting each other is that you are claiming things you wish to be true, with exceedingly flimsy supporting evidence, and I am telling you what the evidence actually means.

<strong> So the mind is devoid of "emotions and attachment"? What is the purpose of it again?

<strong> So anger is always bad? And why do we have this big, complex, resource-hogging brain that does nothing but generate harmful emotions?

Perfect example of what? Does my hatred of Hitler cause me to do only stupid things?

Huh? I just implied there are certain physical properties that reliably distinguish human and animal brains in response to your claim that "the brain needs the Mind to do "questioning" job for it since without such ability, the brain of a human being is no better than that of an animal," which implies that there are no physical differences that could account for "questioning," whatever that is. What, exactly, is your position here?

<strong> Well, they don't act like they do. What they actually "believe" is pure speculation.

[ October 17, 2002: Message edited by: Philosoft ]</p>

excreationist

If they had an OBE and saw or heard things that were known to only have happened while they had no brain activity then that is evidence that the mind can sense things while there is no brain activity... but the person could have just guessed the events that happened while there is no brain activity - e.g. medical people could be saying "we've lost him! clear!", etc. The events would need to be ones that couldn't have been guessed... that's why I suggested a story been told by someone during the NDE since it is hard to guess but easy to remember.

Liquidrage

earlier Seraphim...
Well, NDE is one of the strongest proof of Soul, simply because it has potential of throwing away the 1st reason why such experience occurs.
Most people will say that people in NDE imagined it just like in a dream, but in NDE, in most case such as medical cases where the person is medically dead (as in heart no more supplying blood to the brain), the brain CANNOT make a new expression if it switched off.
It is just like a computer, it cannot produce more signalls IF it's power is switched off. And brain will stop working in 7 minutes (according to a medical report I read somewhere) if the oxygen is cut off and the last sensory to go is the earing. I learn about this in National Geography channel last month.
In such way, HOW does suggest that a "dead" brain could even produce imagery which could be stored as memory which the patient could remember after he or she revived?

Inbetween I question the NDE conclusions exclusively

Then later Seraphim...
I really don't understand what you understood so far, I explain as best I could about energy and why I consider Soul is a form of energy by relating it to Quantum Physics, you do not show any sign whether you understood that part.

I understand plenty about quantum physics. Surely not enough to make my own theories but I've read much on the subject over the least few years.
Which makes me wonder, WTF is this?

Original Seraphim...

When the body dies, the mind (unaffected by death) enters a state of "bardo" - fear of limited existence as if it is also part of the body (undetacted to the physical body) and enters into the new body. This shifting of mind from one dying body to another can be proven by Quantum Theory.

In Quantum Theory, when a matter gets enough energy, it will leaps into the next "stage" - ladder of energy level and continue "leaping" from one energy state to another till it runs out of energy. Laser works in this method where light (which is harmless in most cases) bounced off from two objects (example - Ruby Crystals used in Industrial lasers) to a point that it become tense enough that the energy will be emitted out of the Ruby crystal in form of Laser.

OK, I'll play again, it's inbetween periods in Philly.

Show me the math.
QM isn't a bunch of pot heads sitting around thinking (not that there is anything wrong with that).
It is built on working mathematical fomrulas. I want to see the equations.

Don't show me leaping states of particles. I'm familiar enough with the concept.
What I want to see is the formula for the mind, and I want to see your forula showing the leap in state of the mind upon death.

Seraphim

"Does this mean that their NDE involving Jesus was just a dream rather than their "soul" actually going to a different spiritual dimension? (since you say that Jesus doesn't exist at all)"

My reply : I didn't say like that. The difference between a Christian, me and you is Christian BELIEVE in Jesus, I don't RECOGNISE Jesus since I never seen him or proof of his existence and you don't BELIEVE in any of it at all.

I believe they see what they wished to see. In their mind, Jesus is the point of concentration of all their energy to reach the final Goal. They believe that he exist and for them, that is all that matters.

Example : A person who is running in 200 mile dash. He will not see the road in from of him, ONLY the finishing line ahead of him which will drive him forward.

"Only the parts of my personality that require those memories would no longer exist (but still exist in the past)... the other aspects of me, such as my bodily sensations, body, knowledge of language, etc, could continue to exist. "

My question : If your memory of your personality had vanished (as in memory lost) and you are left with bodily functions, would that be enough to define who you are? I don't believe.

"You said that you think our fear of death partly or mostly comes from past life experiences... I think a better explanation is that we just fear pain and the loss of security (leaving our own lives - which I don't think other animals can fully appreciate)."

My reply : Maybe, maybe not (pure speculation in both case) since we couldn't know how animals think. All we do know is that all animals strive to live.

"Perhaps all you are accessing is intuition... it is how animals reason - weighing things up emotionally, without language."

My reply : Logical assumption in intuition part, but intuition alone will not be able to explain the perfection of a body movement (as if the body had been practise in such was for a long time) in each practice. Ever heard of people stating someone has "Natural Talent" for something? Intuition can't cover that.

"Well have a look at the stages of Alzheimer's disease.
They lose a lot of control over their bodily functions too, but they also have memory, concentration and language problems... and they might also hallucinate, etc.
Most people would say that Alzheimer's affects the mind. e.g. see this Google search for "Alzheimer's" and "mind" which returned about 200,000 results...
It looks like you are insisting that the mind is indestructable so therefore Alzheimer's doesn't damage the mind."

My reply : The mind is undestructable, only the brain is degenerating. That is why I said they are not growing mad, only losing their touch with the environment. Researchers are fixing their brain with simulant, including Stem Cell treatment in attempt to revitalize the Brain, they are not sending in the head-shrink to talk to them. Alzheimer patient are facing severe physical disorder not mental disorder.

OK, one question. IF they regain their ability to communicate and all as before this disease, will they will have their intelligence and knowledge? I know it is speculative question and hope you don't mind speculating.

"Another alternative is that the system of Karma was designed... assuming that it exists."

My reply : One way assuring oneself of Karma is oneself. Ever experience those irratiting conscious attacks? You know, like when you trick someone and got a way with it after hurting that person, and feel quite good about it till some small, irraritating feeling comes and nag you.

"What survival advantage does the existence of Karma offer?"

My reply : Nothing. Karma is just a system of justifcation between the Brain and Mind. You do good, you will get good outcome, you do bad, you get bad outcome.

Lennon/Corgan once said that karma is a placebo for the brain, something to punish itself for accepting something that is evil and makes an organism's chance of survival short. I will explain.

Assume that you are a christian and it said that Adultery is a sin. You meet a pretty girl and after some talk and drink (one too many), you end up having casual sex with her. Now, for the body, such activity means a chance of contracting dangerous STD (casual sex without protections) thus it comes out with this karma stating that since you did sin, you will be paying for it.

"I sometimes like to pop in every now and then. It is kind of a habit. It makes me feel good sometimes to participate in these discussions... "

My reply : No, I didn't ask you. Someone asked me that and I think you thought I asked you why are you here.

Seraphim

From Jamie:

"My point is that the supposed NDE could have occurred during the first 5 minutes. It could have occurred during the first 7 minutes of the brain being off-line. It could have occurred during the 3-minute "brain-dead" period. Lastly, it could have occurred during the 5 minute period after the end of the brain-dead period. However, because there is no time reference for the individual during the experience, they have no way of knowing when the experience occurred. Because the experience is purely internal, external observers cannot determine when the experience occurred.

Thus, there is no evidence to suggest the experience actually happened when during the "brain-dead" state, or even in the other "off-line" period. It could just as easily have occurred just prior to or just after "death"."

My reply : So to make long story short. You are stating that time cannot be decided when a patient will start NDE or OBE, thus the statement that the brain was trully offline is questionable. Right?

That still doesn't come close to explain Flat-liners. In Flatliner cases, where medical personal lower the body temperature, stops the heart and the brain activity is reduce to point that medically, a person IS dead, the patient still have NDE. In such cases, time is no big deal since he is medically dead from start to the end of a medical procedure.

By Philosoft :

"All perfectly consistent with evolution."

My reply : If that is consistent with evolution, than we should be having conversation with Whales and dolphins as well since their brain size is as big as ours as well and they too developed method of communication between themselves. I believe that whales and dolphins existed as long as human as well, if not further.

"Large, complex cerebral cortices for one. "

<a href="http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html#chart" target="_blank">http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/evol.html#chart</a>
<a href="http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/brain.html" target="_blank">http://www.handprint.com/LS/ANC/brain.html</a>

My reply : which was totally different from other homo species around that time, AGAIN unexplained by Darwin as why Homo sapien attend to leap forward from its evolution track.

"Beyond the normal evolution [sic]," eh? Do you have access to some evolutionary capability chart that you might share? Preposterous, indeed.

My reply : I believe I put one link above this statement, together with a site that shows that human brain is indeed larger than other homo species that time.

"Like beaver dams?"

My reply : Is dam built by beaver equals stone tools, cave drawings and spear tools left behind by earlier homo sapiens? It is still something but in term of complexity, dams are a bit ... small in comparision.

"I will count monkeys and chimps, thank you. And crows for that matter."

My reply : Monkey and Chimps acceptable, but crow? That evidence is unacceptable despite of that link. There could be a few explaination why the Crow (Betty was it?) could perform such task - copying from one of the lab tech who is observing it does come to mind. A person drinking from a coco bottle using a straw could give a thirsty crow such idea.

"No, the reason we are contradicting each other is that you are claiming things you wish to be true, with exceedingly flimsy supporting evidence, and I am telling you what the evidence actually means."

My reply : No, I claiming the evidence based on what I see from it and anything similar to it.

"So the mind is devoid of "emotions and attachment"? What is the purpose of it again?"

My reply : To exist in it's true form - as Energy back into it's singularity form. Remember that Big Bang Theory that everyone talked about? It is perfect in all ways EXCEPT for one small matter - Where the Singularity of energy and matter before the Big Bang came from.

"So anger is always bad? And why do we have this big, complex, resource-hogging brain that does nothing but generate harmful emotions?"

My reply : Because it is part of living. The brain define it's existence by generating emotions. You see a girl, you feel that the girl is pretty - your (or your brain's) defination of that girl is pretty. It's whole existence on physical world depends on it's defination of the outside environment. By using this defination, it could come out with more complex defination on top of that.

Example from above :
Girl - pretty.
You - Wanna pretty things - go for the girl.
Girl - Sees you - Accepts (generates Happiness) OR
Girl - Sees you - Rejects (generates sadness).

From one emotion, you generate more and more till your whole world is nothing but definations generated by your brain (which serves no purpose to the Mind).

"Perfect example of what? Does my hatred of Hitler cause me to do only stupid things? "

My reply : Ain't you a humble one (sarcasm).
When I said Hitler, I meant him as example, not you. I can't use you since I don't know that well. Hitler angry at himself for failing too many times (failed to become a painter) and that anger turn to hatred. Since the brain couldn't survive if it start hating itself, it focused on the next possible thing - in Hitler's case, it is the Jews for his misery.

"Huh? I just implied there are certain physical properties that reliably distinguish human and animal brains in response to your claim that "the brain needs the Mind to do "questioning" job for it since without such ability, the brain of a human being is no better than that of an animal," which implies that there are no physical differences that could account for "questioning," whatever that is. What, exactly, is your position here?"

My reply : You are asking me where is the physical part of the Brain which response to question? Well, Hindusm seems to point two point :

1. the base of the neck - where the spinal cord ends, said to carry the body's energy through the gateways (glands).
2. Frontal lope where your (and everyone else's) forehead is situated. This point is what is called the Crown and said to be the point where the soul exist the body (during death or in NBE/OBE experience).

"Well, they don't act like they do. What they actually "believe" is pure speculation."

My reply : And how exactly one can see whether an animal could believe in supernatural anyway? If you put a picture of Jesus or a Cross in front of a cat, he probably won't do anything except to sniff it to see whether it edible or not.

from Liquidrage :

"Inbetween I question the NDE conclusions exclusively"

My reply : Which one? I've seen too any question here.

"I understand plenty about quantum physics. Surely not enough to make my own theories but I've read much on the subject over the least few years. Which makes me wonder, WTF is this?"

My reply : WTF?

"OK, I'll play again, it's inbetween periods in Philly.

Show me the math.
QM isn't a bunch of pot heads sitting around thinking (not that there is anything wrong with that).
It is built on working mathematical fomrulas. I want to see the equations.

Don't show me leaping states of particles. I'm familiar enough with the concept.
What I want to see is the formula for the mind, and I want to see your forula showing the leap in state of the mind upon death. "

My reply : You know such formula cannot be produce YET. One reason is that no one could know who going to have NDE and OBE and another reason is that each person's energy is different from one another because of thier lifestyle.

But not to worry, with the new synthesised drug, Ketamine (which was mentioned here by Jamie I believe) which could produce NDE-like states, maybe that will show at least who is most prone to have NDE experience and opens a new field of research.

excreationist

Do people who see Jesus in their NDE's actually see him (even though you believe he doesn't exist)? Or do they just imagine that they see him? (i.e. is it like a dream?)

Are you talking about someone who is a vegetable? If so, then if I'm not conscious of what's going on (some vegetables may be) then my personality (kind of like the software) has ceased to be. But my body remains. So some aspects of me remain - my body - but the important parts - like my personality wouldn't be there.

A lot of that would be due to genetics and their health - e.g. their reflexes, level of concentration, ability to learn, etc. Some of it would also come from the way they were brought up - e.g. earlier in life they could learn ways of dealing with situations that could be effective... those strategies could be applied to new problem areas.

I think "disorder" is usually or always used to describe things that can be fixed... e.g. "eating disorder" (anorexia, etc), "emotional disorder", etc.
If it is permanent or semi-permanent it would be called a *disability* I think... like "intellectual disabilities", etc. Alzheimer's mostly is an intellectual disability I think - like how people with down sydrome usually are born with intellectual problems. But those with down syndrome can learn more and more things and become more intelligent but Alzheimer's just goes downhill. Just because those with Alzheimer's mightn't go to a psychologist/psychiatrist it doesn't mean they don't have intellectual problems. The thing is that Alzheimer's is very common - a large percentage of old people - and even some young people get it... cheaper people are used to deal with it. Shrinks are used when there is hope of things improving - but as I said, this condition just gets worse and worse.

I think they'd need to relearn how to communicate and a lot of their memories would still be there but some might be lost forever. Kind of like how people in physical accidents can take a long time to relearn how to walk, etc.

I'm saying that maybe Karma was designed by an intelligent creator rather than evolving out of nowhere...

That's called guilt. So are you saying that guilt is actually me remembering something from a past life or something? I thought Karma just involved reincarnating into different things depending on how good you were. Smaller scale karma involves physical rewards and punishments in this life. Here you're talking about emotional rewards and punishments... I think in that example, you are partly expecting your parents or teacher, etc, to punish you, so you feel some of that negative emotion. It is like in Pavlov's experiments where the dog would salivate when the bell was rung because it was used to seeing food when the bell was rung.

I thought you said that Karma (or the soul??) evolved using natural selection... and natural selection requires a survival advantage in order to select things.

Placebos make things feel good - not bad. You're saying that karma is about guilt.... there are other reasons to explain why people get a bad feeling when thinking about something that is bad - they could be partly aware of the negative possible consequences. If they see no negative consequences (including upsetting their parents, etc) then I don't see how someone would experience guilt. There are simpler explanations than the supernatural karma explanation.

Corgan Sow

My reply : Can I access my past memories? Yes, but under special conditions such as when I'm mediating and when I practicing my martial arts (most common when I use a weapon such as a blade). Movements I never practise or seen before comes to me by reflects. The only reason I didn't mention this before is because providing oneself as evidence is insufficient in most discussions.

Hey, seraphim, while masturbating today, I realised I was ELVIS PRESLEY in my past life!!! Is that cool or what?!

Even if SOUL indeed exists, there is no bullshit such as remembering your past life. All the data about your past is still stuck in your dead brain. Use common sense and see your pyschiatric doctor, kid!

My reply : Well, a "Dead" guy by the name of Lennon came to a forum where I was active and start Pissing everyone up, especially the Christians, I believe he is called Corgan Cow here. Due to our discussion in that forum, I end up here, so if you want to blame anyone, blame the cow.

So, you're defending God because of some annoying pesky freak?! BRAVO!!!

<img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

My reply : Nothing. Karma is just a system of justifcation between the Brain and Mind. You do good, you will get good outcome, you do bad, you get bad outcome.

Lennon/Corgan once said that karma is a placebo for the brain, something to punish itself for accepting something that is evil and makes an organism's chance of survival short. I will explain.

You didn't indicated I said Placebo VICE VERSA. How do you define an "evil' act? Is it by homosexuality you so despised? Could your get bad karma by buying tuna sandwich? How can you define "evil" which determine one's current in life? I didn't mention what I try to explain that karma can be used to justify someone's "misfortune" by saying "Hey, blame yourself, maybe you did something bad in past life". Take transvestites. I've seen enough shit Buddhists used that to mock them "Blame your innatural body on your past life, you dog". Or say that Third World children should be neglected because they must have done crimes upon humanity in past life. It's like jihad, people can use the name of God to justify injustice, like stoning adulterers to death. You can use karma to belittle people, in worst pyschological consequences.

Dogma is not evidence. Your evidence for karma so far are your teories of NDE which can also use to justify Andrea Yates when she murdered her children. Perhaps Jesus did command her to murder her own kids? Believe me, I've read testimonies of "past life" and so far, isn't convinced.

Assume that you are a christian and it said that Adultery is a sin. You meet a pretty girl and after some talk and drink (one too many), you end up having casual sex with her. Now, for the body, such activity means a chance of contracting dangerous STD (casual sex without protections) thus it comes out with this karma stating that since you did sin, you will be paying for it.

That is your personal defination for evil. Now you're trying to shove it down people's throats.

My reply : If that is consistent with evolution, than we should be having conversation with Whales and dolphins as well since their brain size is as big as ours as well and they too developed method of communication between themselves. I believe that whales and dolphins existed as long as human as well, if not further.

So, you're saying we homo sapiens, are created from evolution by miracle?

My reply : Is dam built by beaver equals stone tools, cave drawings and spear tools left behind by earlier homo sapiens? It is still something but in term of complexity, dams are a bit ... small in comparision.

Take colonial ants. They can have a hierachy on their own...queen ant, soldier ant, servant ant... Humans might have outstanding quality of intelligence, but that doesn't mean it's out of evolution track.

My reply : Because it is part of living. The brain define it's existence by generating emotions. You see a girl, you feel that the girl is pretty - your (or your brain's) defination of that girl is pretty. It's whole existence on physical world depends on it's defination of the outside environment. By using this defination, it could come out with more complex defination on top of that.

Question: Do you mean that homo sapiens are the only beings capable of emotion?